Why is it ok for atheists to be like fundamentalists? (faith, Christianity)
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You don't feel that telling a kid point blank as if it's a fact "There is no god" is indoctrinating them?
No. No more so than telling them what the speed of light in a vacuum is. In both cases I am making a reality statement based on the current state of the evidence I have observed. Which I explained to you in the thread that you are engaging in historical revisionism of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Thank you, Nozz, for confirming: They are both based on no evidence.
That is an over simplification of what I just said. You are simply over simplifying what I said to build a false equivilance between the two positions that I simply do not think is there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
flip sides of the same assertion coin.
Not exactly no. Making a judgement call based on the current state of the evidence is not the flip side of selling a fantasy assertion lie on the existence of something for which there is not even the smallest quantity of substantiation.
When there is not just little, but NO arguments, evidence, data, or reasoning on offer whatsoever to suggest there exists a god then I am happy to use the sentence "There is no god". I will unpack my exact meaning when asked what I mean by that, but I certainly do not see the sentence as being a direct flip side of claiming there is one.
Idk its strange, you always hear about people talking about people pushing their religious belifs onto others but honestly in my experience i deal with more atheist pushing their non beliefs onto others and attacking those simply just because they believe in God.
Yeah, because there are SO many atheists in this country, and they're ALL militant. Right?
Atheism is a reactionary topic. Almost every atheist I've ever heard of, including myself, don't even mention atheism unless someone is pushing religion. For some folks, perhaps even yourself, blabbing endlessly about God and Jesus can be so natural that you're not even aware you're doing it - so when an atheist finally gets tired of it and hits back with atheism, you mistakenly believe that he just decided to "attack" you for no apparent reason.
"I don't understand! We were just having a conversation and then, all the sudden ...."
That's where you are wrong. Stalin had thousands of priests and other religious officials executed in the name of atheism. He destroyed churches, mosques and other religious establishments on the communist belief that religion is the opiate of the masses. The Leage Of Militant Atheists pushed the Soviet Union's views on thousands of children in an act that was "fundamentalist" in every way imaginable.
Your comparison to Hitler doesn't add up. Hitler never executed anyone in the name of Catholicism.
Who gives a crap? The Soviet Union at that time was under the thumb of a madman, a diagnosed paranoid. Even Lenin warned the Politboro NOT to allow Stalin to succeed him because "he is too harsh."
Stalin didn't want Russians swearing fealty to two masters. It was either Stalin or God ... and God was kicked to the curb. It really doesn't have a lot to do with atheism and far more to do with a man who had a sick mind being in charge of a flawed system.
You don't feel that telling a kid point blank as if it's a fact "There is no god" is indoctrinating them? You don't think this is an outright attempt to shut the door to alternative views? Because if it isn't, I'd like to know what you think it is...
The only reason why you or anyone else would consider it "indoctrination" is because of that truly irritating religious conceit. If your child thinks there's a monster under his bed, what do you tell him? "Well, son, there just might BE a monster under there, one who turns invisible when adults enter the room. So I wouldn't dangle your arms and legs over the side of the bed if I were you. Don't worry, I'm right down the hall where I can hear you scream, and daddy will come running. Okay? Sleep tight!"
Of course you wouldn't. You would tell him point blank, "There is no monster under your bed, son. It's just your imagination."
In every other childish claim - like monsters under the bed, imaginary friends, Santa Claus, a ghost in the woods, a demon in the sewer, whatever - we would tell a kid that those things do not exist. In some cases, like Santa and imaginary friends, we might indulge them until they grow out of those beliefs themselves, but if they persist for too long, counseling is often sought.
Why do we tell kids that they don't exist? Because there is no evidence that they do. Based on our experiences, those things do not exist. It doesn't matter if the guy down the road swears up and down he saw Bigfoot, our experience and the evidence say that these things don't exist.
Only when it comes to religion do we suddenly reverse ourselves and give credence to claims of magical miracles and noncorporeal deities that no one has ever seen. There is no more evidence for God than there is for Bigfoot, but we're not allowed to say "there is no God" because ... yeah, the conceit of religion. Somehow it thinks it deserves special consideration because of what it is. Sorry, but no.
Thus to claim telling a child "there is no God" is no different than telling a child there's no monster under his bed. Ergo, unless telling kids that there aren't monsters and ghosts and Bigfeet and abominable snowmen is indoctrination, neither is telling kids there isn't a god.
Besides, I think atheist parents have every right to tell their children there is no god - because there will be more than enough Christians those children will encounter who will claim, in no uncertain terms, that there IS a god. Why should Christianity get a free pass to throw around their indoctrination while telling a child there isn't a god is "reckless" (as someone else claimed).
The battlefield in the war for a child's heart and mind is already uneven, slanted heavily in favor of becoming a believer. Now even the parents must keep their trap shut about atheism and send their kids into a world filled to bursting with nonsense religious claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
They are both based on no evidence. They are both just really strong promotions of really strong statements, based on nothing. Oh, rest assured I will always agree that "There is no god" sounds more logical to me, but it is not a promise I can make to my kid.
Well that's ridiculous. If you believe there is no god, then there won't be a god for your kid, either. It's not as if you and your child live in alternate realities. Even though you believe there is no god, are you really going to suggest to your kid that ... maybe there is?
Again, it's all about that religious conceit. Because that monster under the bed, the one your kid is terrified of - its existence is perfectly logical to the child but not to you. But you're going to tell him there's no monster. Right? Doesn't matter if the child thinks its perfectly normal for a slavering beast with razor-sharp fangs the size of daggers to live under his bed. You know there is no monster and that's what you tell him. But with religion - oh no, we can't possibly tell a kid there's no god because .... because ... because ...
..snip...I will unpack my exact meaning when asked what I mean by that, but I certainly do not see the sentence as being a direct flip side of claiming there is one.
Your inability to see it doesn't mean it's not so. Other people can understand it quite easily:
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,934,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The only reason why you or anyone else would consider it "indoctrination" is because of that truly irritating religious conceit. If your child thinks there's a monster under his bed, what do you tell him? "Well, son, there just might BE a monster under there, one who turns invisible when adults enter the room. So I wouldn't dangle your arms and legs over the side of the bed if I were you. Don't worry, I'm right down the hall where I can hear you scream, and daddy will come running. Okay? Sleep tight!"
Of course you wouldn't. You would tell him point blank, "There is no monster under your bed, son. It's just your imagination." ..........
........................fangs the size of daggers to live under his bed. You know there is no monster and that's what you tell him. But with religion - oh no, we can't possibly tell a kid there's no god because .... because ... because ...
I wish I could rep you more, because you certainly come up with some great posts.
Keep 'em coming!
p.s. My daughter was telling me this weekend about my 9 year old grandson asking about god, and why so many of his friends go to church. (We live in the buckle of the bible belt in our area). Their best friends happen to be be fundies, and the friendship works as they just do not discuss religion. She told me they had a 2 hour discussion about her and her husbands non-beliefs, that my grandson asked good questions, and in the end, said so what about Santa Claus.
That conversation was a bit harder.
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