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There is no god, said to an inquiring kid seems reckless.
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Originally Posted by cupper3
But honest.
It's neither. It's indoctrination, said with the intent of closing the door to alternative viewpoints. Clearly, Christians are not the only ones who can insist their child view the god question exactly as they do.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
The only reason why you or anyone else would consider it "indoctrination" is because of that truly irritating religious conceit. If your child thinks there's a monster under his bed, what do you tell him? "Well, son, there just might BE a monster under there, one who turns invisible when adults enter the room. So I wouldn't dangle your arms and legs over the side of the bed if I were you. Don't worry, I'm right down the hall where I can hear you scream, and daddy will come running. Okay? Sleep tight!"
Of course you wouldn't. You would tell him point blank, "There is no monster under your bed, son. It's just your imagination."
Nozz and I are having this exact debate in another thread. In summary, I am a parent first. I will do what I think is best for my child's well-being. That means that while from an intellectual-philosophical perspective I acknowledge the statements as similar in terms of lacking evidence, I won't hesitate to tell my son "There are no monsters under your bed" if it will help him sleep at night. But I will not tell him there is no god, because I see purpose in that... no honorable purpose anyway...
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Only when it comes to religion do we suddenly reverse ourselves and give credence to claims of magical miracles and noncorporeal deities that no one has ever seen. There is no more evidence for God than there is for Bigfoot, but we're not allowed to say "there is no God" because ... yeah, the conceit of religion. Somehow it thinks it deserves special consideration because of what it is. Sorry, but no.
Oh you're allowed to say "There is no god" till your heart's content. You're also allowed to say it to your kid. But you can't pretend it isn't leading him by the nose to hold your view on the matter just as a Christian fundamentalist parent would do.
While I don't believe in religion/theism/god, I do believe that some people can benefit from having faith in any one of them. But more importantly, I believe people are better off having the freedom to choose for themselves on the matter. Why? History. Do you have any idea what happens when a big enough group of people start telling others what to believe concerning god?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Besides, I think atheist parents have every right to tell their children there is no god - because there will be more than enough Christians those children will encounter who will claim, in no uncertain terms, that there IS a god. Why should Christianity get a free pass to throw around their indoctrination while telling a child there isn't a god is "reckless" (as someone else claimed).
The battlefield in the war for a child's heart and mind is already uneven, slanted heavily in favor of becoming a believer. Now even the parents must keep their trap shut about atheism and send their kids into a world filled to bursting with nonsense religious claims.
I don't follow this logic at all. You're saying that, because there are lunatics out there, you should go all out in making similarly unproven claims? What is this supposed to teach the kid, except maybe that there are lunatics everywhere? Why not show him/her that there are also rational people who do not subscribe to bold claims for some purpose unbeknownst to, well, anyone?
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Well that's ridiculous. If you believe there is no god, then there won't be a god for your kid, either. It's not as if you and your child live in alternate realities. Even though you believe there is no god, are you really going to suggest to your kid that ... maybe there is?
His mother is a Christian, actually. Which means not only will he grow up knowing there are different answers to the god question, but he will grow up knowing it's possible for both sides to actually get along!
Your inability to see it doesn't mean it's not so. Other people can understand it quite easily:
A side: There is no god.
B side: There is a god.
Both unprovable assertions.
Only someone vested in their preference would not see the truth of it, Trout.
Well, telling a little kid from an adult , I do not believe there is a god would be reckless , so I will up my anti.
There is little difference because the kid lives in the home, there is no god is no different then -I do not believe there is a god
reason being , I do not believe there is a god to a little kid is precisely equal to there is no god in this house, it is a clear position as a known head of the homestead, there is no god in this house. Communism.
Once the rule is made, and we would need to see how it is not a rule,
once the rule is made it makes a position the kid is not allowed to wonder about the matter, a wonder the adult would have open to themselves at any time,(1) and as well a freedom to wonder about in forming up the idea. ( 1...seen in atheist discussion, saying people are changing their minds all the time.
theft ,
in this one, it is thieving a freedom to wonder about the very thing man has wondered about for 25,000 years, ( figurines of deity found in recent diggings )
to interfere would be no different then saying to the kid there is no walking allowed,
you can only crawl even though you can see me walking and wondering about, even to tell you the decision, but for you, you are not to wonder and to continue crawling, so its all pretty reckless.
also, kids are not born god-dumb and all these arguments suppose a condition kids are born god dumb. It would be quite a task to try and show any material which would favor a kid is born, god dumb.
also, the santa claus analogy won't work and half or even most realize its a game and go along . Santa Claus is not a creator or cosmic god or creation wonder, its just a story and they know it .
also, kids are not born god-dumb and all these arguments suppose a condition kids are born god dumb. It would be quite a task to try and show any material which would favor a kid is born, god dumb.
also, the santa claus analogy won't work and half or even most realize its a game and go along . Santa Claus is not a creator or cosmic god or creation wonder, its just a story and they know it .
To address these points, yes and no. Yes, there is an innate instinct to believe in something greater. That does not mean that it is real, but the instinct is there. No, the something greater is not a specific God. That has to be taught the kid as they grow up. The tendency of people to embrace the religion that prevails where they are brought up can hardly be overlooked, if one is honest.
Second, the santa analogy does work and the point that one is the creator of the universe and the other a deliver of presents is not the point of the analogy. It is that there is no good reason to believe in either of them, but no way to disprove them.
It makes one a little suspicious of you that you misunderstand the point.
Well, telling a little kid from an adult , I do not believe there is a god would be reckless , so I will up my anti.
There is little difference because the kid lives in the home, there is no god is no different then -I do not believe there is a god
reason being , I do not believe there is a god to a little kid is precisely equal to there is no god in this house, it is a clear position as a known head of the homestead, there is no god in this house. Communism.
Not necessarily. With "I do not believe there is a god", you leave room to also tell them this is simply your view and it may not actually be correct. You foster an open mind this way. With "There is no god", there's no room for opposing viewpoints. To make sense with whatever else you add, it would have to be true indoctrination, or communism as you put it.
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Originally Posted by Drew K
also, the santa claus analogy won't work and half or even most realize its a game and go along . Santa Claus is not a creator or cosmic god or creation wonder, its just a story and they know it .
I'm inclined to agree. Though we may both just be going off our own experiences (probably not a strong enough argument for debate), I honestly don't think I ever truly believed in Santa Claus. However, I think the whole discussion would do well to acknowledge the value of hope, even false hope. Even we may do it and not even know it. Consider romantic relationships. It's our entirely blind faith that "This is the one for me" (destined love) or even the thought that you are more compatible with your current partner than you could be with anyone else in the world (likely untrue!) that motivates us to put so much effort into the relationship and feel good about our lives. Now, some of us may not even engage in this behavior, but I think most of us can at least acknowledge what it feels like. I just chalk theism up to a more frequent (perception of the) need for this mentality. And so long as I see no harm in theism/Christianity in and of itself, I see no reason to close the door between theism and my son by teaching him something even I don't know is true.
Also, logic can be applied to disproving Santa in a way that cannot be applied to disproving the existence of a deity. Simply put, if there was such a person flying around in a big sleigh pulled by flying reindeer and breaking into everyone's house every Christmas.... someone would've shot and killed, trapped, or at least snapped a photo of him by now!
The amount of special pleading for god(s) here is pretty telling - and yet more evidence that the most reasonable conclusion is that god(s) aren't real.
The amount of special pleading for god(s) here is pretty telling - and yet more evidence that the most reasonable conclusion is that god(s) aren't real.
Hmmm, I don't see how "special pleading" for a child's right to choose what to believe on the subject of a god or gods (if this is any part of what you're referring to) is in any way related to determining if there is a god or not. I consider them entirely separate discussions.
I also wouldn't say there is any evidence that there is no god. I do know the most logical stance will always be that which makes the fewest assumptions, which is why I am an atheist. But evidence? No. I know of no evidence one way or the other.
Also, the Santa analogy doesn't work. There are too many things one can verify isn't happening, things that are necessarily part of the Santa package. God, however, gives us nothing to check or confirm. You either believe or you don't. I personally do not believe. I think it's far more logical to not believe. But that doesn't lead me to thinking for one second I have some sort of evidence that he/she/it doesn't exist.
Also, the Santa analogy doesn't work. There are too many things one can verify isn't happening, things that are necessarily part of the Santa package. God, however, gives us nothing to check or confirm. You either believe or you don't. I personally do not believe. I think it's far more logical to not believe. But that doesn't lead me to thinking for one second I have some sort of evidence that he/she/it doesn't exist.
That is also the case with God. You see, there are definite claims about Santa, delivers presents, rides an aerial sleigh, pops down chimneys. Of course we know that reindeer don't fly and parents bring the presents. But that is missing the point. Santa is a saint, a miraculous being. Normally fish don't swallow shekels and you can't feed 5,000 with a few sprats and buns. If Santa wills it, reindeer can fly. And even a Hollywood movie could work out that Santa can turn into a reverse spark that drops down a chimney or, if there isn't one, can walk through walls just like Jesus.
And the hoary old objection that Parents bring the presents - Santa Inspires them to bring the presents.
You see, this is the same thing with the specific God that the kid was being told about. It is one with claims we can check and be pretty confident to conclude that it exists no more than Santa does and thus the analogy is bang on.
If we are talking about a more Deist kinda god, that is really something better left until the kid is in university with the theist professor marshalling all his Plantinga, Behe and Lane - Craig in order to make a case for God.
In which case, if one wanted you could make an equally irrational and speculative case for Deist-santa. It is the same and the only difference is that most people snap out of Santa -belief after the age of seven.
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