Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Things reproduce according to their kind, just like the Bible says (Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25). They always have and they always will—while ever this world exists.
… But no new 'kinds'
There are many breeds of pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc., but they are all pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc. Recombination of existing genes can produce enormous variety within a kind, but the variation is limited by the genes present. If there are no genes present for producing feathers, you can breed reptiles for another 4.5 billion years and you will not get anything with feathers! Polyploidy (multiplication of the number of chromosomes), chromosome translocations, recombination and even (possibly) mutations can generate 'new species', but not new genetic information, not new characteristics for which there were no genes to start with.
Clear enough?
That's incorrect. Changes in "genetic information" can be quite common depending on several factors. A change in a single nucleotide can lead to drastic change in the resulting polypeptide (protein precursor). The following are two examples, but many more are possible:
1. The codon that starts every polypeptide is adenine followed by thymine/uracil, followed by guanine (A[T/U]G) - a conserved sequence in all organisms. If the initial adenine undergoes a transition mutation (to guanine) or a transversion mutation to cytosine or thymine then the sequence is drastically altered since this sequence will not be translated into a polypeptide.
2. The codon UAG is one of several "STOP" codons that stops transcription. If the trailing guanine is mutates into an adenine the mutation is likely silent; that is, it's still a STOP codon and will have the same effect. However, if the trailing guanine is instead mutated into a uracil then the codon now codes for the amino acid Tyrosine. This means that the polypeptide will have changed; it will be longer and may have a novel function(s) which may be detrimental, neutral, and/or beneficial depending on many factors.
The point here is that genes within a population pool are not fixed. Among different populations of the same species geneticists may find different genetic markers among these populations.
Also, please note that evolutionary theories are not concerned with the origin of life; that is the study of abiogenesis. Evolution describes the change in frequencies of alleles within a population over [evolutionary] time.
Whilst I am glad that you are educated enought to articulate evolution, please do not insult the previous posters intelligence by referring to evolution as "goo to you". Evidence for evolution is overwhelming and undeniable. It forms a basic bedrock of science, and to reject it is to reject a basic premise upon which many aspects of knowledge and social understanding are built.
If you wish to believe in the book of genesis, then that is your choice, but I'm afraid that facts are facts for everyone regardless of what you choose to believe and what you choose not to.
Being able to test a speculative theory is not the same as a known recurring event which characterizes “operational science”. Now that is true science.
Maybe Astronomy can help shed some light on this topic.
One of the first things NASA did when the Apollo 11 astronauts landed on the Moon was to set up a laser reflector that allowed scientists on Earth to measure the distance from the Earth to the Moon. Over the 12-year period from 1969 to 1981, scientists kept track of the distance to the Moon and found it to be increasing about 4 cm per year. In other words, the Moon has been getting farther away from us at a measurable, constant rate (see "Moon Slipping Away from Earth", Geo, Vol.3 (July 1981) p. 137).
With this data, a model can be built to show how close the Moon was to the Earth in the past. The important thing to note is that this model shows that the Moon could not have been orbiting the Earth for more than 2.3 billion years (else the Earth's gravity would cause the Moon to crash into it).
If the requirement for Evolution is that the Earth be 4.5 billion years old (or older), then I would say that this poses a serious problem for the evolutionists' time scale, no?
Now consider these two creation accounts for a moment, and tell me if it matters at all which one is true.
Let's begin with the secular account: “You are the descendant of a tiny cell of primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach three-and-a-half-billion years ago. You are the blind and arbitrary product of time, chance and natural forces. You are a mere grab-bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You are a purely biological entity, different only in degree but not in kind from a microbe, virus or amoeba. You have no essence beyond your body, and at death you will cease to exist entirely. In short, you came from nothing and are going nowhere.”
Okay, now the Christian account: “You are the special creation of a good and all-powerful God. You are created in his image, with capacities to think, feel and worship that set you above all other life forms. You differ from the animals not simply in degree but in kind. Not only is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your creator loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and affection that he has a perfect plan for your life. In addition, God gave the life of his only son that you might spend eternity with him. If you are willing to accept the gift of salvation, you can become a child of God.”
Now imagine two groups of people – let's call them the Secular Tribe and the Religious Tribe – who subscribe to these two world views. Which of the two tribes is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The Religious Tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of purpose. The Secular Tribe is made up of people who are not sure why they exist at all. The Religious Tribe is composed of individuals who view their every thought and action as consequential. The Secular Tribe is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at all.
Does it matter which view is the truth? Does it matter which group you subscribe to?
I think that it does. If life has no intrinsic value, then tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot who killed tens of millions of people to create a god-less utopia would be perfectly justified. Nothing wrong with Hitler creating a race of superhumans.
To me, this is completely rejecting the notion that "all men are created equal". If we promote this worldview, then it will just be a matter of time until we see another tyrant rise from it.
Being able to test a speculative theory is not the same as a known recurring event which characterizes “operational science”. Now that is true science.
Evolution is not a 'speculative' theory. Its reality. I have never ever in my life heard of anyone even doubting it, until I came accross this website. Now I just have fun observing people coming out with the strangest arguments against it
Maybe Astronomy can help shed some light on this topic.
One of the first things NASA did when the Apollo 11 astronauts landed on the Moon was to set up a laser reflector that allowed scientists on Earth to measure the distance from the Earth to the Moon. Over the 12-year period from 1969 to 1981, scientists kept track of the distance to the Moon and found it to be increasing about 4 cm per year. In other words, the Moon has been getting farther away from us at a measurable, constant rate (see "Moon Slipping Away from Earth", Geo, Vol.3 (July 1981) p. 137).
With this data, a model can be built to show how close the Moon was to the Earth in the past. The important thing to note is that this model shows that the Moon could not have been orbiting the Earth for more than 2.3 billion years (else the Earth's gravity would cause the Moon to crash into it).
If the requirement for Evolution is that the Earth be 4.5 billion years old (or older), then I would say that this poses a serious problem for the evolutionists' time scale, no?
Now consider these two creation accounts for a moment, and tell me if it matters at all which one is true.
Let's begin with the secular account: “You are the descendant of a tiny cell of primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach three-and-a-half-billion years ago. You are the blind and arbitrary product of time, chance and natural forces. You are a mere grab-bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You are a purely biological entity, different only in degree but not in kind from a microbe, virus or amoeba. You have no essence beyond your body, and at death you will cease to exist entirely. In short, you came from nothing and are going nowhere.”
Okay, now the Christian account: “You are the special creation of a good and all-powerful God. You are created in his image, with capacities to think, feel and worship that set you above all other life forms. You differ from the animals not simply in degree but in kind. Not only is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your creator loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and affection that he has a perfect plan for your life. In addition, God gave the life of his only son that you might spend eternity with him. If you are willing to accept the gift of salvation, you can become a child of God.”
Now imagine two groups of people – let's call them the Secular Tribe and the Religious Tribe – who subscribe to these two world views. Which of the two tribes is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The Religious Tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of purpose. The Secular Tribe is made up of people who are not sure why they exist at all. The Religious Tribe is composed of individuals who view their every thought and action as consequential. The Secular Tribe is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at all.
Does it matter which view is the truth? Does it matter which group you subscribe to?
I think that it does. If life has no intrinsic value, then tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot who killed tens of millions of people to create a god-less utopia would be perfectly justified. Nothing wrong with Hitler creating a race of superhumans.
To me, this is completely rejecting the notion that "all men are created equal". If we promote this worldview, then it will just be a matter of time until we see another tyrant rise from it.
At least, that's what I think.
What on earth are you talking about???? Distances from the moon, tribes of differing morality.....
Earth's age is older than the biblical explanations.. fact.
Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler etc were immoral, yes. But what the hell has that got to do with evolution, or there being nothing wrong with their actions should evolution be true?? (which it is).
This subject is not even open for debate. It was closed a long time ago, even to a an average IQ high school student, that is unless you believe a 2 thousand year old text that speaks nothing of truth, and everything of fairytale mumbo jumbo.
I'm glad that you picked up on astronomy helping to determine the age of the earth. Your conclusions though are somewhat strange?? I think that you will find that light from stars far far away has been travelling to us for longer than the book of genesis cares to mention. But wait, you weren't actually trying to pawn off scientific data to critisize the very theory that it proves, where you?????
“You are the special creation of a good and all-powerful God. You are created in his image, with capacities to think, feel and worship that set you above all other life forms. You differ from the animals not simply in degree but in kind. Not only is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your creator loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and affection that he has a perfect plan for your life. In addition, God gave the life of his only son that you might spend eternity with him. If you are willing to accept the gift of salvation, you can become a child of God.”
You have put aside evidence and deduction in favor of wishful thinking, and an insistence on a picture of the universe that flatters yourself. The kind of reasoning that leads one to conclude that we can’t explain human origins without invoking a meddlesome God is the same kind of reasoning that leads one to conclude that the earth is 6000 years old.
I'm glad that you picked up on astronomy helping to determine the age of the earth. Your conclusions though are somewhat strange??
What's so strange about it? You mean you find it strange that it is impossible for the Moon to have been orbiting the Earth longer than 2.3 billion years?
I suppose that is strange. It is still true though and it completely disproves the evolutionary time scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479
I think that you will find that light from stars far far away has been travelling to us for longer than the book of genesis cares to mention.
You mean light from the stars has been travelling toward us since the time they were created (as described in Genesis)? Of course.
Your science once said the world was flat - The bible has said it's round all along.
Isaiah 40:22
"[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"
The word "circle" is the Hebrew word "chuwg" and it literally means "sphere".
The verse you cite is from the same Bible that tells a story of the sun stopping its transit across the sky, even going backwards!
I wouldn't bet the house on that translation of 'chuwg'! Neither the Hebrews nor any major culture (Sumerian, Egyptian, Assyrian) in the Near East at that time believed in a spherical Earth. (But some Ionian Greeks knew better by about the 4th c BCE!) The burden of proof is on you.
The Hebrews didn't even get their Genesis myths from God, but rather from the cultures of Mesopotamia. This was known as long ago as 1876, such as in this book: http://www.archive.org/details/thech...ccou00smituoft
Where have you (or your teachers) been since 1876?
Last edited by ParkTwain; 12-28-2007 at 03:45 PM..
You have put aside evidence and deduction in favor of wishful thinking, and an insistence on a picture of the universe that flatters yourself. The kind of reasoning that leads one to conclude that we can’t explain human origins without invoking a meddlesome God is the same kind of reasoning that leads one to conclude that the earth is 6000 years old.
No. What I have presented is very disturbing evidence if you are an evolutionist.
You chose to respond by ignoring the evidence presented and instead opted to make fun of the other parts of my post.
For those of you who tuned in late, here’s the basic problem I presented for evolutionists.
The Moon is slowly getting farther away from Earth. This was known from radar measurements even before the Apollo astronauts placed a laser reflector on the Moon, allowing even more precise measurements.
Millions of years from now, the Moon will be farther away from Earth than it is now. But that means millions of years ago the Moon must have been closer to the Earth than it is now.
Many people have done the calculations and discovered that the Moon’s orbit would have equaled the Earth’s radius less than 3 billion years ago.
It would have been difficult, to say the least, for life to evolve with the Moon rolling around on the surface of the Earth.
So, Ian, if you would like to make arguments against this (other than, "ha, ha, ha"), then I'm listening.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
