Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Certainly not true. Check out the dried clay tables with cuneiform writing found all over Mesopotamia.
Well I’ll certainly run down to the local library and pick up a copy of the 5000-year-old clay tables. Oh wait, this just in:
“Professor Stefan Maul, University of Heidelberg
Text translated by Thomas Lampert, Ph.D., Berlin, Germany
The oldest written human documents are more than five-thousand years old, handed down to us in cuneiform on clay tablets which, over the course of time, have been shattered into thousands of tiny pieces.” http://prelectur.stanford.edu/lectur...l/tracing.html
It’s a good thing I didn’t make that trip to the library. I guess I'll have to wait for the restoration. What a shame huh.
Yeah I understand all of this, and for purposes of evolution we define a species as fitting a certain characteristic. We have phylogenetic trees, taxonomies, kingdoms, etc... to help us differentiate between a species. Nature has no 'lines', so to speak, it doesn't differentiate between a gorilla and a petunia. They're different because of their chemical makeup, just as a window is different than a monitor. However, we choose to label things so that we're more organized in what we do, that goes for differentiating a monitor from a window to organizing filing systems, to having dictionaries. For us, without some sort of clarification on what is what, we would live in a jumbled hodgepodge world.
Although I see the point in some philosophy, I'm not a very big fan of it because it always seems to be left open to interpretation. I'm a person that likes to deal with fact. Philosophy does not really give me that warm gushy feeling, it usually ends up irritating me. Philosophers remind me of Yoda. Just because they talk funny and vaguely, people end up respecting their point of view. I'm not bashing all of philosophy, I just think that people put a little too much creedance into it. It's called philosophy for a reason, not factosophy.
Then why are you on a message board catorgized as religion/philosophy?
I don't know why people feel atheism can be a religion. As I've said before "Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby."
You're not up on Aristotle or Socrates are you. I was speaking metophoically in that religion can be any thing you want it to be. Not to many people get this form of thought, so that's okay.
Look, I'm well aware that there is no such thing as absolute truth. You can't 100% know that before you drop a ball it's going to hit the floor. However, through scientific experiment, studying the laws of gravity, and understanding how dropping a ball works, we can make a very good assumption that by releasing the ball it's going to fall to the ground. In fact, we could probably be 99.9% certain it's going to hit the ground. Yes, I understand there are no absolute truths, but so as not to go insane or obsessive compulsive, we're willing to eliminate that .1 percent chance and drop that ball.
Science has never claimed to predict the future in the terms you are speaking of. It will make predictions such as when the sun will burn up, what will happen when all the energy in the universe burns out, what would happen if a meteor struck the earth, things of that nature. However, it is only religion that claims to foretell the future in the manner in which you are speaking. I'm honestly not impressed with the Bible. You know what would impress me with the Bible, especially since its' the 'word of God'?? I would be impressed if the Bible had mentioned something about DNA or genetics. Yet, it doesn't come anywhere close. Now, that would have been something truly marvelous. Imagine if the bible had said "One day there will be a discovery of a double helical strand that carries the code for all of humans, animals, plants, etc.." That would have been impressive.
Jesus wasn't a scientist.
It is a theory in much the same way the theory of gravity is a theory. Or the Theory of Relativity is a theory. For all intensive purposes, it is a fact, I must admit though, I really wish scientists would stop calling things 'theories'. It is somewhat misleading.
I never said anything different. I was just throwing out some extra information
Yes, but you forget to mention that in order for things to fossilize after a world-wide flood in the fashion that they did the Earth would have heated up to an unbelievable magnitude. Noah would have looked like an overcooked Thanksgiving turkey.
So therefore dinosours were baked into the ground at some point in time. You wouldn't happen to have a timeline on this would you?
The Earth was never entirely covered with water. The oceans may have been in different locations (probably more like the landmasses) but there is no supporting evidence to say the Earth was ever completely covered in water. Anyway, I don't want to get on that topic, that's a whole other debate.
I don't find that surprising at all given that the ancients knew the sun was a source of heat and many of them believed god was in the sun. To me, it's not really hard to connect the dots of say God=in the sun=end of the world=god(the sun) comes to earth. It's not really a hard concept. I think a four year old could come to the same conclusion.
I didn’t say ancients sweetie, I said the Bible predicts the earth will end in fire The earth is in constant evolution and the Bible reads of this. As you have disputed that the Bible has any scientific relevancy to evolution. What part of this did you not get?
No, you misunderstood me. I never said we came from monkeys. I said that a common misconception of evolution is that people think it means that given enough time a monkey will turn into a man.
As far as how we evolve, we will only evolve if it benefits our survival. Eating ginseng may help our individual survival, but our traits will be passed on as long as we make it to 'breeding age' and are successful enough to mate. That's a fundamental process of survival of the fittest through natural selection. Only the animal that is naturally fit enough to make it to breeding age will produce offspring. This is very important in the animal kingdom. Much more so than in our current state of affairs.
The world is most certainly full of possibilities. I just prefer to stay in 'sane-land' instead of trying to explain the natural world with a 2000 year old book that deals with spirits, ghosts, gods, and devils. To me, there is no logical reason to try and explain the natural world with something supernatural.
Then why are we discussing a science-related topic under a philosophy point of view if your wish is to stay in the ‘sane-lane’? It seems a bit bizarre to me but okay I’ll play. God didn’t write the Bible, people did.
I'm assuming you don't really believe that you had a good day at work, or with your spouse because the stars lined up just right do you?
No, but I do believed that since my last comment said that I wished you all well and in essence gave my odious and it was deleted then perhaps I should stay awhile and give this a new fresh look.
Someone smart did write the Bible. But, I have read nothing in the Bible that an ordinary man couldn't write. As I said before, had Jesus talked about DNA than I would be impressed. Had the writer talked about DNA than I would have been impressed.
As I said, I've read the Bible, but I don't know why people think that by reading it it's going to change my mind. I think it's important to read the bible because so much of our culture such as art, history, music, etc... have been influenced by it. I also think you can enjoy the Bible and just like any other work of fiction, you can be moved to tears by it. However, it doesn't mean that it's true.
I wasn't looking for to change your mind I just thought you may find interest in beings with faces on all four sides and they can walk frontwards and backwards in motion with out a turn. Truth be told it has been a long time since I have picked up a Bible. I don't need to.
Kepler's Foretelling of the Law of Gravity
Kepler believed that the sun did not sit passively at the center of the solar system but that through some mysterious power or “virtue” actually compelled the planets to hold to their orbits. Because the planets moved slower when they were farther from the sun, this power must diminish with increasing distance. The idea that the planets were controlled by the sun was developed by Isaac Newton in his laws of motion and law of gravitation. Newton assumed that the sun continuously exerts a force on each planet that pulls the planet toward the sun. Infoplease.com: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0859119.html
Thank God this is just a theory and not an actual fact because now I can rest at ease now knowing that what the Bible predicts as an evolutionary change in development (2000-year-old book) and what the scientist have to say are all just theories and fictional beliefs. None of it is fact. Earth, fire a foretelling of things to come in our forward motion of progression up and out of existence just like the dinosaurs is fiction.
Troop, now you want DNA out of the Bible. The Bible speaks of a flood and the earth was covered in flood-waters. Is that not science?
Troop I believe you want something you can not have and it frustrates you to no end. I also believe you like to pull other people’s chains so-to-speak. I mean why else would you be on this particular message board under this category? What is your motivation here?
I suggest you may want try to stop convincing yourself that the Bible isn’t a true and factual documentation by way of getting others to convince you that it is.
That’s just my take on what may really be going on here.
A note to the moderator:
It seems my last comment was deleted because it was off topic. In my opinion this whole section on evolution is off topic. Evolution is a discovery in science.
This category is religion and philosophy.
I guess its okay if we are to consider Modern Theory of Evolution is a defined philosophy and or religious belief.
However the formal definition of Evolution is: any process of formation or growth; development.
I wasn't looking for to change your mind I just thought you may find interest in beings with faces on all four sides and they can walk frontwards and backwards in motion with out a turn. Truth be told it has been a long time since I have picked up a Bible. I don't need to.[/color]
Just a note, the part of my post that you answered to 'within my quotes' don't come up when I hit 'reply' so it's hard for me to address what you replied to.
Anyway, I know you weren't looking to change my mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
[color=Navy]Kepler's Foretelling of the Law of Gravity
Kepler believed that the sun did not sit passively at the center of the solar system but that through some mysterious power or “virtue” actually compelled the planets to hold to their orbits. Because the planets moved slower when they were farther from the sun, this power must diminish with increasing distance. The idea that the planets were controlled by the sun was developed by Isaac Newton in his laws of motion and law of gravitation. Newton assumed that the sun continuously exerts a force on each planet that pulls the planet toward the sun. Infoplease.com: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0859119.html
I really don't know what you're trying to get at here??
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
Troop, now you want DNA out of the Bible. The Bible speaks of a flood and the earth was covered in flood-waters. Is that not science?
No, it is not science. I read a fiction book the other day about artificial intelligence evolving to the point where it annihilated man, or at least attempted to. It doesn't mean it's true, and it doesn't mean it's science.
Science follows the scientific method. Now, if you can show me proof where the writer's of the Bible followed the scientific method then we can consider it science. Until then, it's just an unsupported claim that has been shown to be untrue through ACTUAL scientific testing via the scientific method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
Troop I believe you want something you can not have and it frustrates you to no end. I also believe you like to pull other people’s chains so-to-speak. I mean why else would you be on this particular message board under this category? What is your motivation here?
Actually, this board was originally called "Religion" not "Religion and Philosophy". Anyway, because I like to discuss things of religious nature does not mean that I am religious or that I am looking to be religious. What I really enjoy doing is discussing science, but there's not a lot of discussion on any other forums that really take it to the level that this forum does. Believe me, I have checked.
I'm not out to pull people's chains and I'm not out to convince people that their belief in God is wrong. I do, however, like to present my point of view, and in due time, you'll realize that a lot of it stems from bad experiences with religious people in my real life. I would like to alleviate some of the pre-conceived notions of being an atheist as a result of that and the only place to do so is pretty much on the religion forum. I'd also like to say that after posting on here a little while, and agree or disagree with my point of view, I have made several friendships on here as a result. Sometimes it kind of reminds me of the Americans and Germans leaving their trenches on Christmas to play soccer and sing carols with one another only to go back to fighting each other the next day
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
I suggest you may want try to stop convincing yourself that the Bible isn’t a true and factual documentation by way of getting others to convince you that it is.
I already disregarded the Bible well before I ever came to this forum. As I said, I'm not out to convince other people that the Bible isn't true. Although I may cite evidences for why it is not, I don't expect to really change anyone's mind. The only mind changing I would like to do is that when someone hears Atheist they don't instantly think of me as a bad, immoral person. I just want to be treated normally, and if I can speak to a crowd to let them know why I feel that way than just maybe I can make a little bit of a difference. Ignorance breeds hatred, and I see a lot of hatred directed towards me because I'm an atheist.
One other thing. You asked me for a timeline of how fossils fossilize. Not only am I going to give you the data on how they fossilize but I'm also going to give you articles on why the flood version in the Bible is inaccurate. Also, we're kind of straying off the topic of evolution, so if you would like to respond to this particular part of my response please feel free to quote this section and create a new thread. That is, of course, as long as it's ok with the moderator.
These address Noah's flood, but within them you'll also find good info on fossilization as well. There are cited resources at the bottom of each article. If you care to question the validity of them I welcome you to research the scientists who presented the documentation for these particular articles.
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/ (this is a pretty neat website that I came across while doing research for your response. I haven't gone through all of it, but so far, it's rather informative)
One final note, and I'll back it up if you need me to. If radioactivite dating is incorrect than that means we have gotten the theory of the atom, radioactivity, and geology (just to name a few) completely screwed up. In fact, did you know, that if the isotopes that we use for radioactive dating were unstable instead of being stable (as young earth creation assumes) than this Earth would be a hotbed of nuclear explosions and activities hardly suitable for life on Earth.
However the formal definition of Evolution is: any process of formation or growth; development.
Actually the definition of evolution in the context we are talking about is a little different. Your definition, although suitable for certain things such as the evolution of the car or airplane, isn't really applicable to biology.
The definition of evolution in the terms we are speaking is as such:
Change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. -Dictionary.com
Just thought you might like to know that. I'm not trying to belittle you, but people often have this 'strawman' version of what evolution really is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Kepler's Foretelling of the Law of Gravity
Kepler believed that the sun did not sit passively at the center of the solar system but that through some mysterious power or “virtue” actually compelled the planets to hold to their orbits. Because the planets moved slower when they were farther from the sun, this power must diminish with increasing distance. The idea that the planets were controlled by the sun was developed by Isaac Newton in his laws of motion and law of gravitation. Newton assumed that the sun continuously exerts a force on each planet that pulls the planet toward the sun. Infoplease.com: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0859119.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I really don't know what you're trying to get at here??
The planets are moving toward the sun, earth included and a book written many many many years ago, foretells the earth will go up in a ball off fire.
How did they know this? Was it science in the study of the stars and the universe BC?
People don’t like me either, so don’t take it personally GCS. I stopped considering what other’s thought of me a long time ago.
In my opinion religion is not God. Religion is people. They dissected the Bible, created doctrines from it so as to correlate their own ideas on how they think it should be and then they threw out what they didn’t like. Then went off to start their organizations. So I hope you never become a religious person.
Yes I am very much alone in my world and I grow weary in my journey.
What I had wished to bring to the topic of conversation is a question.
Is it impossible to give to the idea for the Modern Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design (New way of saying God Created) could be one in the same?
And if not, why?
Evolution seems an intelligent way to get us all up and rocking to me. It also fits with a plan, could be God’s plan?
It can no more be prooven He isn't than it can be prooven He is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/
That is a great web site by the way. Thank you for posting it along with the others. I have new reading material
PS Lets shorten our comments. I don't know about the moderator, but I'm giving myself a headache here.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 12-21-2007 at 12:17 PM..
Reason: grammer and punctuation
The planets are moving toward the sun, earth included and a book written many many many years ago, foretells the earth will go up in a ball off fire.
I still don't understand what you're getting at? Whether the Earth moves into the sun or the sun becomes a red dwarf, expands and melts the Earth into goo doesn't really matter to me in regards to the Bible. As I said. It's not hard to connect the dots if you live 2000 years ago, especially when most people believed God was actually in the sun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
In my opinion religion is not God. Religion is people. They dissected the Bible, created doctrines from it so as to correlate their own ideas on how they think it should be and then they threw out what they didn’t like. Then went off to start their organizations. So I hope you never become a religious person.
Yes, religion is man made. Religion is awful. Many believers will tell you that as well. That is, of course, until you ask them which God they believe in. Their God is defined by religion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
What I had wished to bring to the topic of conversation is a question.
Is it impossible to give to the idea for the Modern Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design (New way of saying God Created) could be one in the same?
I'm assuming you're talking about God creating the first lifeforms on Earth and guiding the process of evolution to turn it into the diverse plant and animal kingdom we have today?
Well, to me, when someone brings this up, at least they are becoming a little more rational. My only problem with this is that there is no proof for it and you can't really test for it. You can't test for divinity so we can't really include it in our scientific method. I will give you this though. I think that this idea is what a lot of scientists who are believers in God feel.
Personally, it seems to me, that creating the first life forms and letting them have their own way would be the ultimate form of free will, no? I mean it really would wouldn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
Evolution seems an intelligent way to get us all up and rocking to me. It also fits with a plan, could be God’s plan?
Sure! It could be god's plan. But which god? And why does said god require worship or even acknowledgement of existence? It could be god. It could be the Mayan rain god Chaac who demanded that we execute teenagers. It could be Allah. It could be Shiva. As you already mentioned, religion is man-made and to me, so are the deities within them.
As I said, if we can find some sort of tangible scientific proof that points only to a deity in terms of evolutionary principles or any other scientific category than by all means we should include him into experimentation. But, we just can't go around testing the age of fossils under the assumption that a god created them because we have no evidence for god or should I say we have no evidence that a certain god with a certain creation plan exists except what people hold in their hearts.
I guess when we go digging for fossils in Pakistan we'll assume the Islamic God's creation profile? When we dig in America we'll assume the Christian profile? We can go to Africa and go by the Ifa religion's creation profile? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
It can no more be prooven He isn't than it can be prooven He is.
You're right, but if you really immerse yourself in all of the available evidence (empirically scientific evidence) it's not very hard to make a determination. I think that's why people are scared of science to be rather honest. I think they're scared of what they might find so they remain willfully ignorant of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
That is a great web site by the way. Thank you for posting it along with the others. I have new reading material
No problem. Let me know if you need more
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
PS Lets shorten our comments. I don't know about the moderator, but I'm giving myself a headache here.
Woops. Sorry, I didn't see this part when I first read your post. Ok, I'll shorten it up a little bit next time. My bad.
Hi Im new to this forum
In regards to evolution as a creationist I believe there is some truth to forms of evolution such as geological evolution. The earth with out question has changed and is currently changing at this very moment. Volcanic eruption in the ocean are creating new Islands. We know that certain mountain tops were at one time ocean floors because sea creature fossils are logged in them. This being caused by continental plates sliping under each other causing the land to rise. Even the celestial heavens are currently evolving. Nebula's are creating new stars all the time. For me none of this takes away from creation. Because is has the signature and signs of a being with superior knowledge who set it in all motion. The Universe is still expanding and now new evidence points to an infinite expansion.I believe in a superior being whom many call God (which means a ruler). I came to this conclusion by just observing life and current science. The very fact that ecosystems exist in such a manner that they thrive and grow indicates organization, design ,purpose and meaning. Some being orchestrated every thing we see. I do not believe in the chaos theory. Oh sure sometime things can happen by chance. But not the sophistication that is demonstrated in living organisms. It is simple to complex and organized to be a product of chaos or evolution.
I still don't understand what you're getting at? Whether the Earth moves into the sun or the sun becomes a red dwarf, expands and melts the Earth into goo doesn't really matter to me in regards to the Bible. As I said. It's not hard to connect the dots if you live 2000 years ago, especially when most people believed God was actually in the sun.
The Bible reads the world will be destroyed by fire, dot dot dot and the earth is moving towards the sun. In other words we are going to evolve to a point to where there won't be so much as a fossil left for discovery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Yes, religion is man made. Religion is awful. Many believers will tell you that as well. That is, of course, until you ask them which God they believe in. Their God is defined by religion...
My God is the God of Abraham, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Christians have made Him apart of their organization and organizational beliefs. There's a web site (I wish I had the link handy) that says there are over 1528 different Christian organizations and all of them believe they are the only ones going to Heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I'm assuming you're talking about God creating the first lifeforms on Earth and guiding the process of evolution to turn it into the diverse plant and animal kingdom we have today?
Well, to me, when someone brings this up, at least they are becoming a little more rational. My only problem with this is that there is no proof for it and you can't really test for it. You can't test for divinity so we can't really include it in our scientific method. I will give you this though. I think that this idea is what a lot of scientists who are believers in God feel.
I'd be disappointed if there were a test. Not having a test makes Him all the more special.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Personally, it seems to me, that creating the first life forms and letting them have their own way would be the ultimate form of free will, no? I mean it really would wouldn't it?
We would definitly look funny with puppet strings attached.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Sure! It could be god's plan. But which god? And why does said god require worship or even acknowledgement of existence? It could be god. It could be the Mayan rain god Chaac who demanded that we execute teenagers. It could be Allah. It could be Shiva. As you already mentioned, religion is man-made and to me, so are the deities within them.
As I said, if we can find some sort of tangible scientific proof that points only to a deity in terms of evolutionary principles or any other scientific category than by all means we should include him into experimentation. But, we just can't go around testing the age of fossils under the assumption that a god created them because we have no evidence for god or should I say we have no evidence that a certain god with a certain creation plan exists except what people hold in their hearts.
I guess when we go digging for fossils in Pakistan we'll assume the Islamic God's creation profile? When we dig in America we'll assume the Christian profile? We can go to Africa and go by the Ifa religion's creation profile? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Yes I do and it is a shame it all has to be so confussing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
You're right, but if you really immerse yourself in all of the available evidence (empirically scientific evidence) it's not very hard to make a determination. I think that's why people are scared of science to be rather honest. I think they're scared of what they might find so they remain willfully ignorant of it.
People are scared of what they don't know. Science is all about testing that which is in existence. Is there a test to determine whether or not humans have a soul? Since there isn't most people are afraid of dieing, the fear is of the unknown. As for as being scared of Science, no I don't think so, because of the discoveries in Science we have developed good things, ie, longer life spans than before. Many can't talk the talk of Science, so therefore they don't walk there.
The reason I had asked this question, "Is it impossible to give to the idea for the Modern Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design (New way of saying God Created) could be one in the same?"
I had seen on PBS a little bit about the Ken Miller you had mentioned in an earlier post and Intelligent Design and the discussion of Evolution on that broadcast. As I listened to what was said, the question above poised my mind.
I felt this may be a good place to find out what some one would have to say in expansion of the idea.
Hi Im new to this forum
In regards to evolution as a creationist I believe there is some truth to forms of evolution such as geological evolution. The earth with out question has changed and is currently changing at this very moment. Volcanic eruption in the ocean are creating new Islands. We know that certain mountain tops were at one time ocean floors because sea creature fossils are logged in them. This being caused by continental plates sliping under each other causing the land to rise. Even the celestial heavens are currently evolving. Nebula's are creating new stars all the time. For me none of this takes away from creation. Because is has the signature and signs of a being with superior knowledge who set it in all motion. The Universe is still expanding and now new evidence points to an infinite expansion.I believe in a superior being whom many call God (which means a ruler). I came to this conclusion by just observing life and current science. The very fact that ecosystems exist in such a manner that they thrive and grow indicates organization, design ,purpose and meaning. Some being orchestrated every thing we see. I do not believe in the chaos theory. Oh sure sometime things can happen by chance. But not the sophistication that is demonstrated in living organisms. It is simple to complex and organized to be a product of chaos or evolution.
Hello Paul1961 and welcome
You put this wonderfully! When I read it, I was like yea, what he says.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Some replies are inline within the quotes in read
Evolution vs Intelligent Design
