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Why does God even need an argument for his / her / it's existence? Why are people of faith even in the 21st century needing "arguments" and "apologetics" to show God exists. This is the one basic question I come back to as an atheist and why I identify as atheist. Rational people don't argue whether or not the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Rational people don't argue that when you drop a ball it falls to the Earth. I could go on and on with obvious things but the simple problem remains as to why the almighty perfect creator of the universe in the Bible can't come up with better ways of convincing the entire population of Earth as to it's existence and qualities than using some so called holy books riddled with absurdities and other nonsensical stuff. Discuss.
Why does God even need an argument for his / her / it's existence? Why are people of faith even in the 21st century needing "arguments" and "apologetics" to show God exists. This is the one basic question I come back to as an atheist and why I identify as atheist. Rational people don't argue whether or not the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Rational people don't argue that when you drop a ball it falls to the Earth. I could go on and on with obvious things but the simple problem remains as to why the almighty perfect creator of the universe in the Bible can't come up with better ways of convincing the entire population of Earth as to it's existence and qualities than using some so called holy books riddled with absurdities and other nonsensical stuff. Discuss.
He doesn't. The fact that the universe exists proves that something CAUSED it to exist. It's logical.
He doesn't. The fact that the universe exists proves that something CAUSED it to exist. It's logical.
...and this something has to be the God of the Bible?? It can't be super powerful aliens in a parallel universe who have obtained the ability to create universes? Even if for the sake of argument I say that there was a creative force behind our universe...what evidence do you have that this creative force exists NOW and that it is the God of the Bible and not something else...and don't retreat into the whole "because the Bible" says so.
...and this something has to be the God of the Bible??
No. Creation points to the existence of the Creator.
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It can't be super powerful aliens in a parallel universe who have obtained the ability to create universes?
Where did they come from? There must have been a "first cause" that wasn't caused.
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Even if for the sake of argument I say that there was a creative force behind our universe...what evidence do you have that this creative force exists NOW and that it is the God of the Bible and not something else...and don't retreat into the whole "because the Bible" says so.
He has granted me the faith to believe in him. He gave us the Bible and we can read of him. If you can't say the same, I understand. But congratulations, it sounds like you just moved from "atheist" to "agnostic".
...and this something has to be the God of the Bible?? It can't be super powerful aliens in a parallel universe who have obtained the ability to create universes? Even if for the sake of argument I say that there was a creative force behind our universe...what evidence do you have that this creative force exists NOW and that it is the God of the Bible and not something else...and don't retreat into the whole "because the Bible" says so.
It's the old "cause of causes" argument.
We puny humans are way too low on the food chain to comprehend ....
No. Creation points to the existence of the Creator.
Where did they come from? There must have been a "first cause" that wasn't caused.
He has granted me the faith to believe in him. He gave us the Bible and we can read of him. If you can't say the same, I understand. But congratulations, it sounds like you just moved from "atheist" to "agnostic".
The aliens analogy was for argument sake. I don't take that argument any more seriously than your God argument. It seems like you will retreat though to the Bible which I find after reading about half of it or so to be a book that does not even remotely convince me of it's coming from some supernatural other worldly creator. I could go on and on with just the silliness of the Noah's ark story for starters or the other nonsensical stuff in it but why waste my time. Btw don't you think it arrogant that this God has so chosen you to reveal all this truth to in "faith". You know...the proper Christian Biblical faith? I mean shouldn't your God be working more feverently on the Muslim children in madrassas being indoctrinated in the Muslim faith so that they can believe in the Bible like you instead of the Koran. I mean it's their souls at stake there right Vizio..I take it you believe that you have to have Jesus as your lord and savior at time of death?
07-02-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Vizio
He doesn't. The fact that the universe exists proves that something CAUSED it to exist. It's logical.
So existence proves that something caused it?
If mere existence proves a cause then so would God's existence.
This has already wandered off topic. The OP question wasn't does god exist or not, the question was if god exists, why has it done such a poor job of establishing its existence?
It is a challenge to the promoters of organized religions, who insist on the absolute veracity of ancient texts, supposed revelations, interpreted miracles etc, as their proof.
The OP is saying, and I agree completely, that these are awfully lame proofs coming from an entity as intelligent and powerful as god is supposed to be, as defined by its believers.
So...if there is a god which wishes us to believe in it, and this god has unlimited means for making those wishes known beyond question, why has that god resorted instead to these cryptic, questionable methods which leave room for argument?
This has already wandered off topic. The OP question wasn't does god exist or not, the question was if god exists, why has it done such a poor job of establishing its existence?
It is a challenge to the promoters of organized religions, who insist on the absolute veracity of ancient texts, supposed revelations, interpreted miracles etc, as their proof.
The OP is saying, and I agree completely, that these are awfully lame proofs coming from an entity as intelligent and powerful as god is supposed to be, as defined by its believers.
So...if there is a god which wishes us to believe in it, and this god has unlimited means for making those wishes known beyond question, why has that god resorted instead to these cryptic, questionable methods which leave room for argument?
No. Creation points to the existence of the Creator.
Where did they come from? There must have been a "first cause" that wasn't caused.
He has granted me the faith to believe in him. He gave us the Bible and we can read of him. If you can't say the same, I understand. But congratulations, it sounds like you just moved from "atheist" to "agnostic".
Well...there we are. We need some kind of argument to justify the faith, even though the arguments are not very sound ones.
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