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Well I will take a stab at putting this back on track with the following observation: if "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", perhaps the reason a tri-omni god would not care about this principle is because his omnipotence is not in the least taxed by the extra work of undoing various buggeries rather than either preventing them in the first place or (better still) structuring reality so that they can't even come about.
The problem then is very similar to defending theodicy in the face of the Problem of Evil: suffering still exists, and the fact that god allows it violates the claim that he's omnibenevolent. His willingness to use his limitless power in extravagant ways that cause or allow suffering, means that he cannot possibly care about human suffering -- and may even enjoy it.
Unless prayer is being used to the exclusion of conventional medical treatment, and it is putting one at risk...why do you care if saying prayers, and/or knowing prayers are being said, in some way make people feel better?
It has actually been shown in at least one study that knowledge of being prayed for against control groups links to a detriment in the recovery and well being of those being prayed for.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
If you don't have hatred...why are most of your posts veritably dripping with it?
Ah the "Why do you hate god" card. We see that one played a lot. When someone has no substantive response to a critique of some aspect of religion, they move instead to misconstrue the disagreement as "hate".
And often it has a useful (to them) propaganda effect. Because no one wants to be seen to be "hateful" so the people espousing the disagreement simply back down. The purveyors of unsubstantiated claims in our species have really honed their skills at silencing dissent and disagreement. Thankfully there are enough of us out there for whom such tricks have no effect.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
You are NEVER going to change the base culture of this country to much of a degree.
Maybe not personally no. We are never going to do so. But that does not mean such a change will never happen, or that we can not be part of making it happen. Atheism is the fastest growing minority and secularization abounds in many places around the world. Change is happening, regardless of whether we will see little to none of it in our life time.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
I would suggest to Atheists, if they are having trouble "coping" with the prolific influence of religion in the country where they now reside...they might seriously consider moving to a more secular country that has a society and culture more compatible with their mindset.
Considering the source a claim to run away from the problem is unsurprising but I am afraid that it simply does not work that way for many people. They do not simply get up and run away every time things are not going their way. They instead stand up, discuss, debate, campaign, work hard, and effect change. I could almost picture debates in US History where people were told if they had a problem with slavery they should move to a country where slaves are not kept, or if they had a problem with black people being an underclass that they move to a predominantly black country.
And thankfully for all concerned they did not take the cowardly and lazy route. They stuck around, stood up for change, and in many ways eventually got it. Just like the homosexuals are now too. I see your recommendation as being just another prong to your fork of simply trying to silence dissent and change. But it ain't happening sunshine. Those voices making those noises are simply not going away. Bummer. Sorry, that's just the "REALITY" of it.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
If you think ranting and spewing insults and mocking religion to a few dozen strangers on an internet forum is gonna accomplish anything...I wouldn't be surprised to see you trying to stop a speeding freight train by standing in the middle of the tracks with your hands out in front of you.
I would be surprised if any single atheist on any single forum thinks that their posts there in isolation are going to cause any change really. So it would be surprising that you suggest this user thinks so. But there is a bigger picture that exists behind the petty focus on one user. Such voices on such forums abound. And this is a good thing. With the advent of the internet we see an attack on religion that has never really existed before.... which is that wherever the voice of unsubstantiated nonsense finds a platform, that voice finds the voice of reason and dissent right there beside it.
People like me and cupper will not cause that much change, even with all the associations and politically active groups I have become a member of, supported and even STARTED. But what we represent is a body that _as a whole_ is changing a lot more than you seem comfortable with. Which is why you try to silence them with comments suggesting "you are full of hate" and "Shut up and go to another country" and anything else you can use in your shrill need to brush such change under the carpet.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
"Creator"...and that "Creator" is the source of our rights. I guess since you don't acknowledge that "Creator"...sorry, no rights for you!
If you ever try to make that fly in an actual real world public forum or, even better yet, a court of law..... please endeavor to ensure I am there to watch. It would be more entertaining than I can tell you.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Nah...most Fundie Militant Atheists, not only wouldn't "fight hard for all to keep religious freedom"...if given the power, they would outlaw religion completely and criminalize the practice of it.
I am not sure what you think simply making things up about atheists adds to the conversation. Not only have yuo offered NO substantiation whatsoever that the above is what atheists would want or would do.......... the claim simply goes directly in the face of what the majority of atheists on this very forum espouse all the time which is generally democracy, secularism and humanism.
But certainly do not let reality and facts get in the way of a propaganda motivated smear campaign.
I always get amused by religious folks asking for prayers when someone is ill with a serious disease.
Why?
Why do you think that who ever you think is holy will intervene, when that same entity caused the disease in the first place?
It appears you are seeking rational behavior from people with a world view that they did not rationalize themselves into in the first place. So it is hard to really answer your question very much.
However it does touch lightly on the seeming paradox that religious people grieve for the dead or for death. Surely if you _really_ believed your dead loved one was now living in a state of eternal bliss, where you will shortly be joining them in the cosmological blink of an eye, then what is there to grieve?`
Perhaps they do not really believe in this blissful afterlife quite as strongly as they claim to, and their grief is explained by this doubt. They grieve because somewhere deep down they do not believe their support structure any more than I do.
Similarly: As with the lord's prayer "Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief" prayer can be a kind of kind of self reaffirmation and support of belief. So when confronted with the sudden reality of death, which hits home at no other time like a serious illness, their doubts require the solace offered by prayer. And while they might profess to be petitioning the creator of the universe to intercede in affairs.... what they are _actually_ doing is the theological equivalent of diving under the bed covers and entering into a "There is no monster under my bed" mantra of self reassurance.
In short therefore: It would be worth exploring whether they are doing the prayer for the recipient or really for themselves.
It appears you are seeking rational behavior from people with a world view that they did not rationalize themselves into in the first place. So it is hard to really answer your question very much.
However it does touch lightly on the seeming paradox that religious people grieve for the dead or for death. Surely if you _really_ believed your dead loved one was now living in a state of eternal bliss, where you will shortly be joining them in the cosmological blink of an eye, then what is there to grieve?
Perhaps they do not really believe in this blissful afterlife quite as strongly as they claim to, and their grief is explained by this doubt. They grieve because somewhere deep down they do not believe their support structure any more than I do.
Similarly: As with the lord's prayer "Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief" prayer can be a kind of kind of self reaffirmation and support of belief. So when confronted with the sudden reality of death, which hits home at no other time like a serious illness, their doubts require the solace offered by prayer. And while they might profess to be petitioning the creator of the universe to intercede in affairs.... what they are _actually_ doing is the theological equivalent of diving under the bed covers and entering into a "There is no monster under my bed" mantra of self reassurance.
In short therefore: It would be worth exploring whether they are doing the prayer for the recipient or really for themselves.
Seriously? You don't think it's normal for people to grieve the presence in the here and now of those they love and who have been their companions in this life, whose company has brought them joy and whose unique presence has been an important part of their lives, even if they think they will see them again after their own physical death?
Seriously? You don't think it's normal for people to grieve the presence in the here and now of those they love and who have been their companions in this life, whose company has brought them joy and whose unique presence has been an important part of their lives, even if they think they will see them again after their own physical death?
If I truly believed that my departed loved one was gone onto a state of eternal and incomparable bliss, then my grief would be massively tempered by this. I do not grieve when someone I love moves to Australia. I MISS them sure, but that is not grief. What I think your reply to me is doing is conflating the two completely. Missing someone because they are temporarily out of your presence, and grieving their LOSS.... are too massively different things.
And we actually do see the effects of REAL belief in the after life in Truely True Believers (tm). Especially in the Muslim world where parents can sometimes be seen to not just not grieve at the death of their children, but positively celebrate it. In the case of some suicide bombings the parents not only believe their child has been sped onto paradise by the act.... but has ensured that the immediate family have a pathway to there too.
I always get amused by religious folks asking for prayers when someone is ill with a serious disease.
Why?
Why do you think that who ever you think is holy will intervene, when that same entity caused the disease in the first place?
Well I can't answer your question as to why you get amused by folks asking for prayer but I do believe there is a higher power and an original creator.
That being said, I believe if one believes and is sincere in their belief then they do feel the presence of "God" deep within themselves and can commune with him spiritually. I believe prayer is receiving comfort and understanding for yourself when under stress or even in more joyful times.
If God has already given us the tools (through scientific research) to heal a particular person of his distress then I think it will be done through the skills of Drs, Surgeons and others.
I don't think God caused the disease. Our flesh and blood bodies are not spiritual and therefore begin to die from birth. I don't have any answers to "why?" simply because none of us know.
However, if one is comforted by prayer then even though it is obvious their loved one is on the threshold of death I will not hesitate to pray for a peaceful, painless journey into the afterlife.
I believe the person asking for prayer for their loved ones is comforted just knowing that others truly care and share his pain. Therefore I will do all I can including prayer to help .
If I truly believed that my departed loved one was gone onto a state of eternal and incomparable bliss, then my grief would be massively tempered by this. I do not grieve when someone I love moves to Australia. I MISS them sure, but that is not grief. What I think your reply to me is doing is conflating the two completely. Missing someone because they are temporarily out of your presence, and grieving their LOSS.... are too massively different things.
And we actually do see the effects of REAL belief in the after life in Truely True Believers (tm). Especially in the Muslim world where parents can sometimes be seen to not just not grieve at the death of their children, but positively celebrate it. In the case of some suicide bombings the parents not only believe their child has been sped onto paradise by the act.... but has ensured that the immediate family have a pathway to there too.
If someone you loved and who was an integral part of your life was moving away and you knew you would never see them or talk to them or spend time with them again in this lifetime, you wouldn't consider that a LOSS? If you wouldn't grieve, I find that odd, but okay. I also find it odd that people would celebrate their child blowing themselves and others up, and certainly not something to lift up as admirable.
And, what is your issue exactly? That perhaps some religious people have doubts about the reality of an afterlife, or some trepidation because, even if they feel fairly certain that there is an afterlife, they only have a vague notion of what it might actually be like? Do you consider doubt or a lack of absolute certainty to be bad? Why?
I would suggest to Atheists, if they are having trouble "coping" with the prolific influence of religion in the country where they now reside...they might seriously consider moving to a more secular country that has a society and culture more compatible with their mindset.
Wow, really? You've actually resorted to the right-wing redneck rhetoric of, "If don't like it, leave."
Too bad all of the women who wanted to be treated equally didn't all pack up and leave. That would've been quite a boon to your industry.
At any rate society does change. If everyone who wanted change simply up and left instead, we'd still be a bunch of Puritans.
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