Prayer Requests: Why ask for them; who started the problem in the first place? (gospel, Jews)

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by cupper3

I challenge existing thinking. I generalize about questioning following myths developed before science was widespread. If you consider that hate, that is your issue, not mine.

It's not that you do it, but the manner that you do it. As if you don't notice how many people make note of it. You are just trying to spin it as something other than what it obviously is...and it is hate. You claim it is "my issue" and "not yours"...but you need to consider that what is viewed as hateful is seldom thoughtfully considered...if that is your goal, as you state.

Can't argue with on that point, but the reality is, more and more people, especially the younger under 35s are turning away from the religion they were raised in, and rejecting it completely. I'm just trying to help that change along in some small ways, to at least get people thinking, rather than depending on rote learning and faith. Faith proves nothing beyond herd behavior.

Somebody needs to clue you in: Your "effort to result ratio" is about as poor as it gets. If you think ranting and spewing insults and mocking religion to a few dozen strangers on an internet forum is gonna accomplish anything...I wouldn't be surprised to see you trying to stop a speeding freight train by standing in the middle of the tracks with your hands out in front of you.

Wrong. The Treaty of Tripoli specifically states:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

As if what they wrote meant squat as to what they did.
They also wrote that all were equal...while they executed one race, enslaved another, and fully oppressed a gender.
Those guys were some of the most evil scam artists in the history of the world...what they wrote was a front. They typically did the exact opposite.

The Declaration of Independance mentions the word 'god' once: Laws of Nature and of Nature's God and put the laws of nature equal to nature's god, whatever that means. Nothing beyond that.

There is NO place in the Constitution the word God is mentioned. None. Anywhere. So you are wrong completely on that point.

Yeah, HaHaHaHa...they said that people are endowed "by their Creator" (big 'C' on Creator) with "certain unalienable rights"...and lists that "among these are Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness".
So...if you are so into what they write as "how it is": There must, contrary to your claims, be a "Creator"...and that "Creator" is the source of our rights. I guess since you don't acknowledge that "Creator"...sorry, no rights for you!
I'd watch out how much you hold up what those guys wrote as evidence of "how it really is"...unless you intend to acknowledge ALL of it as "how it is".

The "In God we Trust" was not added until 1956. Sorry, it was not 'always there'. It was changed then, and it can be changed now.

I said it was representative of our culture and "recent" history...because it IS.
I would hold my breath waiting for it to change if I were you.

I won't argue that religion, in the past, has ingrained itself in public institutions to the point where many cases have shown it to be unconstitutional. However, more and more court cases are being lost by those that want public prayer, public display of religion in taxpayer paid buildings etc. etc. I also won't argue that those that are religious will go kicking and screaming that atheist should just shut up and live with it.

Except that will no longer happen. I happen to live 4 blocks from a Creation Science museum, albeit a small one. Many think I live in the buckle of our areas bible belt, and so do I. I get along with virtually everyone in our small village, but they also know not to start with the bible thumping where it is inappropriate. Keep it in your church or homes, and by all means, practice it there to your heart's content.

Bring it anywhere else, and they know it is out of line. Just like it would be out of line for me to go into those churches and diss their belief in that venue.

Ain't gonna happen. Why? The changes to a secular society have started to happen, and that ball is gathering momentum. New England, the Pacific Northwest and some of the 'flyover' states already are more secular than religious. The south will be the last to change, that is a given. But the south is not the nation.

You can keep spitting into a strong wind if you want. Go for it...it's your life.

Or help make the changes that are happening. I've rolled in the ditches with the best of them on some political issues, so fighting an uphill battle is OK with me. The important part is that I know I am on the right side of the issue. By all means, have your religious freedom. I would fight hard for all to keep that. But not in the public venue. And if I can help change a few minds along the way, that is a bonus.

Nah...most Fundie Militant Atheists, not only wouldn't "fight hard for all to keep religious freedom"...if given the power, they would outlaw religion completely and criminalize the practice of it.
And that includes most of those on this board...since you "know you are on the right side of the issue".

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You are clearly incapable of caring or thinking about anyone but yourself and what you want and what you will tolerate, etc. . . . your life and relationships will undoubtedly be affected accordingly. Sad.

I have no desire to be shoehorned into an uncomfortable position of being exposed to some religious leader attempting to force himself on me. My guess is you would not feel real good about the voodoo witch doctor coming to your bed side, killing a chicken and reading the entrails.

But according to your logic, that should be OK. So, would you object to that witch doctor or not?

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

...
As if what they wrote meant squat as to what they did.
They also wrote that all were equal...while they executed one race, enslaved another, and fully oppressed a gender.
Those guys were some of the most evil scam artists in the history of the world...what they wrote was a front. They typically did the exact opposite.

So an official treaty, signed by one of the drafters of the constitution and endorsed by the Senate means nothing? Really?

Yeah, HaHaHaHa...they said that people are endowed "by their Creator" (big 'C' on Creator) with "certain unalienable rights"...and lists that "among these are Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness".
So...if you are so into what they write as "how it is": There must, contrary to your claims, be a "Creator"...and that "Creator" is the source of our rights. I guess since you don't acknowledge that "Creator"...sorry, no rights for you!

Yup, you got me on that one. I missed it. But now....

I'd watch out how much you hold up what those guys wrote as evidence of "how it really is"...unless you intend to acknowledge ALL of it as "how it is".

You never did mention that the Constitution does NOT mention anything about a god or a creator or a sky fairy or a devil or a voodoo queen. Read if from the official source:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-11...-110hdoc50.pdf

I said it was representative of our culture and "recent" history...because it IS.
I would hold my breath waiting for it to change if I were you.

But the change is already happening. You can ignore it and deny it, but that does not change it. Less and less people are getting baptized, going to church or getting married in churches. It is just not important to them at all.

[quote[
Nah...most Fundie Militant Atheists, not only wouldn't "fight hard for all to keep religious freedom"...if given the power, they would outlaw religion completely and criminalize the practice of it.
And that includes most of those on this board...since you "know you are on the right side of the issue".[/quote]

I actually don't believe that at all. Most atheists I know value rights strongly, including your right to your religion. Just as long as it does not step on my right.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by cupper3

I have no desire to be shoehorned into an uncomfortable position of being exposed to some religious leader attempting to force himself on me. My guess is you would not feel real good about the voodoo witch doctor coming to your bed side, killing a chicken and reading the entrails.

But according to your logic, that should be OK. So, would you object to that witch doctor or not?

Yes...bias and prejudice, rooted in hatred, would tend to make one blow that whole scene totally out of proportion and feel that was actually the situation they were in.
You should have asked them if they had a treatment for your Godophobia affliction.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by cupper3

So an official treaty, signed by one of the drafters of the constitution and endorsed by the Senate means nothing? Really?

Of course not...what they ACTUALLY DO is indicative of REALITY, not some ink on paper.
Do you think because government officials write documents proscribing certain actions....that means nobody does them? If that was the case we would only need laws...and no courts or jails.

You never did mention that the Constitution does NOT mention anything about a god or a creator or a sky fairy or a devil or a voodoo queen. Read if from the official source:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-11...-110hdoc50.pdf

The Constitution also had a proscription for booze...but that didn't stop people from drinking.
No entity has ever promoted religion harder to the American people than the U.S. Government...contrary to what is written in the Constitution.

But the change is already happening. You can ignore it and deny it, but that does not change it. Less and less people are getting baptized, going to church or getting married in churches. It is just not important to them at all.

Bottom Line: No high level official is ever elected by the percentage of people that identify as embracing God Belief. If it was an election of Belief VS NonBelief...Belief would win by a landslide!! THAT is what YOU ignore and deny. Atheism has less mojo than Invisible Pink Unicorns or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
That's an idea!! You guys should just pick one of those as your "God". After all...you invented them. At least you'd "fit in" better...and might be able to shake that "Most Hated" title you have.

[quote[
Nah...most Fundie Militant Atheists, not only wouldn't "fight hard for all to keep religious freedom"...if given the power, they would outlaw religion completely and criminalize the practice of it.
And that includes most of those on this board...since you "know you are on the right side of the issue".

I actually don't believe that at all. Most atheists I know value rights strongly, including your right to your religion. Just as long as it does not step on my right.

Except that, the REALITY IS...you actually feel the mere practice of religion "steps on your rights". That's obvious.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

It's not that you do it, but the manner that you do it. As if you don't notice how many people make note of it. You are just trying to spin it as something other than what it obviously is...and it is hate. You claim it is "my issue" and "not yours"...but you need to consider that what is viewed as hateful is seldom thoughtfully considered...if that is your goal, as you state.

You sound just like them, always accusing atheists of "hate" when we don't tip-toe in the presence of religious belief - no matter how bizarre it is. This ridiculous accusation is so common now that atheists all over the country see it as just another internet meme propogated by fundies who WANT to be hated. In fact, I think that's why they goad atheists with accusations in the first place.

But for someone such as yourself to repeat it - tsk tsk. Unless you want to be hated too, I suppose. Because we really are getting tired of having the entire issue deflected with ad hominem nonsense. It's much easier to argue about who hates whom than to offer up evidence of a god or to show how the Bible is historical fact.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

I guess since you don't acknowledge that "Creator"...sorry, no rights for you!

It's really too bad that you only open your mouth when you're chastizing atheists. If I didn't know better, I would think you were a fundie in disguise. I often wonder what it would take for you to actually come down on the side of atheists - religion trying to pass bills allowing open discrimination? Wait, no, you sided with the bigots on that one. How about the chief jurist for the state of Alabama announcing that atheists and non-Christians should be denied Constitutional rights? Oh, no ... you kept conspicuously quiet when that debate occurred.

I dunnae ... at least with the fundamentalists, we know exactly what to expect, and they don't pretend to be anything other than who and what they are.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

I'd watch out how much you hold up what those guys wrote as evidence of "how it really is"...unless you intend to acknowledge ALL of it as "how it is".

Unfortunately, there are plenty of Americans who haven't changed their calendars since 1776; they still think we live in the age of Oklahoma land claims, log cabins, muskets, and rugged frontiersmen with a bowie knife and coon-skin cap. These are the same folks who have deified the Founders - and quote mine them to death, picking only the positive things they said about religion or taking them out of context to make them Christians. Oh yeah, and the Constitution only matters when it works in their favor. If it doesn't, then it becomes a worthless piece of paper and, besides, the Bible trumps the Constitution every time about every subject.

However, the irony here is that those who worship the Founders the most are the very people you keep defending.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

I would hold my breath waiting for it to change if I were you.

It will change in about 2, perhaps 3, generations. The intolerant, rigid, bigoted right-wing conservative Christians of today have all but ensured that the younger generations will cast off the primitivism of fundamentalism and strike out for balmier shores. Those that don't become atheists will seek spirituality elsewhere - perhaps with the Far Eastern philosophies, a very liberal version of Christianity, or within the parameters of a generic god of which we know nothing.

But it will change. The war against gay marriage and contraception has caused some Christians to say in haste some unspeakable, atrocious things, and people were paying attention.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

Nah...most Fundie Militant Atheists, not only wouldn't "fight hard for all to keep religious freedom"...if given the power, they would outlaw religion completely and criminalize the practice of it.

And that includes most of those on this board...since you "know you are on the right side of the issue".

I'm sure you would like to think that - and it sure makes a debate with us much easier if you manage to convince yourself that we're all just itching to impose our own brand of fascism onto the world. As long as you believe both sides are exactly the same, it allows you to sit on the fence and not be responsible for having any convictions. Of course, with the year or so I've been here and watching you unilaterally come down on the side of the fundies, you've taken a side whether you meant to or not.

If you're so worried about spitting into the wind, I have to wonder why you're doing it yourself by admonishing atheists - as if we're going to sit down and shut up because you said so. But as you say, it's your life.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

Yes...bias and prejudice, rooted in hatred, would tend to make one blow that whole scene totally out of proportion and feel that was actually the situation they were in.
You should have asked them if they had a treatment for your Godophobia affliction.

You never addressed the issue of whether you would be OK with a voodoo witch doctor chanting incantations to you while you were in a hospital bed. Your logic would indicate you should be absolutely OK with that.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

Of course not...what they ACTUALLY DO is indicative of REALITY, not some ink on paper.
Do you think because government officials write documents proscribing certain actions....that means nobody does them? If that was the case we would only need laws...and no courts or jails.

You said god or creator was in the Constitution. I proved it was not. Address the issue, not sidestep it.

Except that, the REALITY IS...you actually feel the mere practice of religion "steps on your rights". That's obvious.

Nope, just practicing that religion in the public sphere. Like sex, it should be done in private. Or churches, temples, mosques and synagogues.

[kayanne]

Originally Posted by cupper3

You never addressed the issue of whether you would be OK with a voodoo witch doctor chanting incantations to you while you were in a hospital bed. Your logic would indicate you should be absolutely OK with that.

I too am curious to see the answer to this one.

But since my "tough questions" in this thread have been repeatedly ignored, I expect this one will also. It does get frustrating.

As far as the person who did not appreciate the pastor coming in for prayer, the location of the person doing the praying isn't a factor (well, I guess unless it was laying on of hands or anointing with oil, which of course would require being in the same room). But in general, anyone anywhere can pray for anyone anywhere, so there was no need for it to be at the patient's bedside against the patient's wishes. That tells me it was more for show, for bullying, for imposing their beliefs on the patient. It was certainly not respectful of the patient.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by cupper3

You said god or creator was in the Constitution. I proved it was not. Address the issue, not sidestep it.

Do you really need that?
By "Constitution", I meant all of them, including the States. Lots of "God" references in those...you can check it out.
Anyway...here ya go:
It's the in the ratification Clause: Article VII.
The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.
done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

What entity do you think that was referring to? And by signing after it, they all acknowledged that is what it was.
You can try to nitpick...but you know the truth. You just don't like it.

Nope, just practicing that religion in the public sphere. Like sex, it should be done in private. Or churches, temples, mosques and synagogues.

Why only in private?
ALL Beliefs and NonBelief should be able to be openly proclaimed (and practiced) without issue. Only the biased, prejudice, and hateful would feel otherwise.