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Oh give me a friggin' BREAK with this primitive nonsense.
You just cannot accept the reality that a former Christian woke up from her blissful, mindless slumber and began applying real logic and rationality to a book of fiction designed for a very specific tribe in a very specific place. YHWH was NEVER anything more than a tribal god - which is why this all-powerful, omnipotent god who so desperately wants everyone to be with him - went NOWHERE ELSE on the planet to tell humanity about his own existence. China? No. India? No. Central America? Absolutely not. Australia? Uh uh.
And yet she admits that she applied logic to the stance that there is no God and it came up problematic as well. Logic and reason will only get you so far. There are MANY mysteries in this life that logic or science can not explain. NBC news even ran a piece last night showing evidence that prayer heals people. Now how can having mental thoughts or speaking words actually create physical changes in the body? There goes your logic out the window.
You can also call the Bible a book of fiction, but that is a baseless assumption most likely rooted in an extremely negative biased perspective. You have ZERO proof for such a claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
No, this little tribal god stayed put and did nothing whatsoever for anyone else save the Hebrews - who stole legends and stories from a panoply of different places - and used them to bring cultural cohesion to the tribe. There was never an Exodus, there was never a parted sea, there was never a Promised Land, there was never manna from heaven.
More bold claims with no proof. Argument from silence is not 100% proof positive. Also, the claim that the Bible stole from other cultures just doesn't hold up under scrutity. Very vague similarities. It would be like claiming I plagiarized because I wrote a story about a hero in New York City and there are other stories about heroes in New York City.
You can shout to the sky that God is little or a fairy tale until your throat bleeds but that doesn't change the fact that God is real and forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The ONLY reason why the tribal religion of the Hebrews managed to hang on for so long is because of Constantine - and the various tribal rulers that came after, from Alaric to Charlamagne, all of whom getting a big kick out of spreading the Word of the Good Book with the points of their swords. It STILL would have died a slow death if not for the invention of the printing press and the Gutenberg bibles printed thereafter. (Yet still God's word could only be spread at the speed of the fastest camel because, apparently, God flunked geography at God School and thought the Sinai and the east coast of the Mediterranean were the only places he could go.)
For someone you claim to be fictional, you sure show a lot of resentment and anger here. The opposite is true. Throughout history, man has tried constantly to wipe out Christians and destroy the Bible. The Roman emperor Diocletian demanded that every copy of the Bible be destroyed. Why? Why so much anger and hatred for a book that gives a message of hope, righteous, and love for each other? The answer is Satan hates the things of God so he works through man. By all accounts, Christianty should have been destroyed. The Hebrew culture should have gone into the dustbins of history along with every other ancient culture of that time period. They did not. Instead just as the Bible predicted, they became a nation again, revived a dead language, became a prosperous wealthy country even though they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Do you really think that is just mere concidence?
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Originally Posted by Shirina
It has NOTHING to do with "Satan" and these ridiculous claims of nefarious spiritual warfare going on, these silly battles for our souls. I had a hard time believing in that balogna (baloney) when I was a child - and this was when I thought there were monsters in the cubby hole beneath the stairs.
Nothing I say with convince you, and you can call it silly all you want, but Satan is real and works through the minds of men. Here's one example looking at your reality. As far as I know, human beings are the only species to commit suicide, actually going against an evolutionary need to survive and live. How do you explain that one logically?
Oh give me a friggin' BREAK with this primitive nonsense.
You just cannot accept the reality that a former Christian woke up from her blissful, mindless slumber and began applying real logic and rationality to a book of fiction designed for a very specific tribe in a very specific place.
Belief no. 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
YHWH was NEVER anything more than a tribal god - which is why this all-powerful, omnipotent god who so desperately wants everyone to be with him - went NOWHERE ELSE on the planet to tell humanity about his own existence. China? No. India? No. Central America? Absolutely not. Australia? Uh uh.
Belief no. 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
No, this little tribal god stayed put and did nothing whatsoever for anyone else save the Hebrews - who stole legends and stories from a panoply of different places - and used them to bring cultural cohesion to the tribe.
Belief no. 3
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Originally Posted by Shirina
There was never an Exodus, there was never a parted sea, there was never a Promised Land, there was never manna from heaven.
Belief no. 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The ONLY reason why the tribal religion of the Hebrews managed to hang on for so long is because of Constantine - and the various tribal rulers that came after, from Alaric to Charlamagne, all of whom getting a big kick out of spreading the Word of the Good Book with the points of their swords.
Belief no. 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
It STILL would have died a slow death if not for the invention of the printing press and the Gutenberg bibles printed thereafter. (Yet still God's word could only be spread at the speed of the fastest camel because, apparently, God flunked geography at God School and thought the Sinai and the east coast of the Mediterranean were the only places he could go.)
Belief no. 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
It has NOTHING to do with "Satan" and these ridiculous claims of nefarious spiritual warfare going on, these silly battles for our souls. I had a hard time believing in that balogna (baloney) when I was a child - and this was when I thought there were monsters in the cubby hole beneath the stairs.
Belief no.'s 7 & 8
Your statements are very absolute Shirina. Are you being sarcastic?
P.S. Apologies - I haven't been as positive as Jeff - my response was because I was struck by just how sure you appear to be of what you are saying.
Last edited by Age-enduring; 12-24-2014 at 12:54 AM..
And yet she admits that she applied logic to the stance that there is no God and it came up problematic as well. Logic and reason will only get you so far. There are MANY mysteries in this life that logic or science can not explain. NBC news even ran a piece last night showing evidence that prayer heals people. Now how can having mental thoughts or speaking words actually create physical changes in the body? There goes your logic out the window.
Matter is constructed from energy (atoms moving about). Sound is vibrational energy. Vibrational energy can break glass and cause earthquakes. Therefore prayer can logically have an impact on living things.
You can also call the Bible a book of fiction, but that is a baseless assumption most likely rooted in an extremely negative biased perspective. You have ZERO proof for such a claim.
The Bible is a book of Hebrew history (factual, mostly) and moral teachings. Mainly the miracles are the only segments that could conceivably be fiction, and many of those were metaphors.
More bold claims with no proof. Argument from silence is not 100% proof positive. Also, the claim that the Bible stole from other cultures just doesn't hold up under scrutity. Very vague similarities. It would be like claiming I plagiarized because I wrote a story about a hero in New York City and there are other stories about heroes in New York City.
You can shout to the sky that God is little or a fairy tale until your throat bleeds but that doesn't change the fact that God is real and forever.
Actually there are several cults that predate Hebrew myth. That doesn't necessarily disprove the Bible however.
For someone you claim to be fictional, you sure show a lot of resentment and anger here. The opposite is true. Throughout history, man has tried constantly to wipe out Christians and destroy the Bible. The Roman emperor Diocletian demanded that every copy of the Bible be destroyed. Why? Why so much anger and hatred for a book that gives a message of hope, righteous, and love for each other? The answer is Satan hates the things of God so he works through man. By all accounts, Christianty should have been destroyed. The Hebrew culture should have gone into the dustbins of history along with every other ancient culture of that time period. They did not. Instead just as the Bible predicted, they became a nation again, revived a dead language, became a prosperous wealthy country even though they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Do you really think that is just mere concidence?
Nothing I say with convince you, and you can call it silly all you want, but Satan is real and works through the minds of men. Here's one example looking at your reality. As far as I know, human beings are the only species to commit suicide, actually going against an evolutionary need to survive and live. How do you explain that one logically?
I'm not sure humans need Satan as a concept. I believe God puts adversity in our path to test us. We either do the right thing or don't. "Satan" is a shortcut for the concept of human failing. Also, small forest animal run in front of cars all the time, so I'm not sure your argument holds up.
And yet she admits that she applied logic to the stance that there is no God and it came up problematic as well. Logic and reason will only get you so far.
Yes, logic and reason go as far as our actual knowledge. After that, there is the unknown. I prefer not to keep making the same stupid mistake our ancestors kept making when dealing with that which we do not know - attributing it to the whimsy of gods, magic, the supernatural, and an intelligence. They've always ended up being wrong. It would be insane to think that this time they'll be right.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
NBC news even ran a piece last night showing evidence that prayer heals people. Now how can having mental thoughts or speaking words actually create physical changes in the body? There goes your logic out the window.
No, logic still applies. I do think that belief in your own ability to recover from an illness plays a substantial part in the healing process. Some folks believe that a god is healing them, but really, one could believe that a bedpan is god. If you pray to that bedpan and really think its going to help you, your belief can influence your body's healing.
Does that mean I should suddenly start believing in YHWH and Jesus and believe that the Bible is true and yada yada? Why should I? I'm pretty sure I could dig up cases where someone healed "miraculously" after praying to Allah, Krishna, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The fact that a Native American medicine man can ritually aid in healing just as effectively as a priest shows beyond doubt that the power comes from within, not from without. Ergo, there are no gods involved. At all.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You can also call the Bible a book of fiction, but that is a baseless assumption most likely rooted in an extremely negative biased perspective. You have ZERO proof for such a claim.
I have enough evidence for its fictitious nature that it effectively amounts to proof - and I've been posting that evidence almost daily for over a year now. It's not my fault that you either ignore the evidence or mindlessly deny it.
I've posted some of that evidence here - the fact that this omnipotent God confined himself to this little patch of desert where, coincidentally enough, the Hebrews were. If the Bible wasn't a fiction written by the Hebrews, one would expect God to make himself known to everyone - not just the friggin Hebrews. There's not even a REASON why YHWH picked the Hebrews to dote upon and not some other tribe or nation. That is pretty strong evidence for its fictitious nature - given that Judaism is largely an ethnic religion because God didn't show up anywhere else but where the Hebrews went.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
More bold claims with no proof.
I don't have to prove anything. You're the one making positive assertions. I'm only telling you why I think those assertions are completely wrong. Which is more than I really have to do considering I COULD just sit here and say "prove it" to every religious assertion you make - and I would be within debate decorum to do so because the burden of proof is yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Argument from silence is not 100% proof positive.
This is a ridiculous premise to base your arguments upon. It also demonstrates the same old conceit of religion that believers continually embrace. Funny how it's okay to say Santa doesn't exist or unicorns don't exist - and no one is going to say, "How do you know?!?" or "Prove it!"
No, only when religion is involved do we have to throw reason and reality out the window and believe without cause in gods and magic. In every other context, such beliefs would be considered insane. But within the context of religion, we cannot assume that a complete absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Well ... why not? Do you honestly sit around believing that, just maybe, a gremlin tangled up all your Christmas lights while they were stored in the garage? Do you accept the possibility that a tiny Bigfoot is living inside your left ear? Do you accept the possibility that, within the next 5 minutes, a small meteor is going to crash into your house and strike you dead? What about 5 minutes after that? And 5 minutes after ... and so on.
The reason why the "argument from silence" is not a fallacy when dealing with religion is because there is an infinite number of things we do not believe in, and we don't believe in them for precisely the SAME reason atheists don't believe in God. There is simply no evidence. If we cannot dismiss religion as false due to the fallacious nature of an "argument from silence," then we cannot justify our disbelief in ANYTHING that someone can invent, imagine, or make up. We would have to accept EVERYTHING as potentially real, and then we would have to decide whether or not to act upon those things, and how to go about it.
If the "argument from silence" applies to a lack of religious belief, then we would be paralyzed with indecision, essentially information overload, because we would have to accept everything and anything as a very real possibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Also, the claim that the Bible stole from other cultures just doesn't hold up under scrutity. Very vague similarities. It would be like claiming I plagiarized because I wrote a story about a hero in New York City and there are other stories about heroes in New York City.
Riiiight ... because the Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't talk about a great flood inflicted upon humanity by an angry god - and only a few people surviving it by riding in a boat. No, that doesn't happen in the story at all ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You can shout to the sky that God is little or a fairy tale until your throat bleeds but that doesn't change the fact that God is real and forever.
Uh, actually, I can scream until my throat bleeds and systematically dismantle your religion and your beliefs ... but you'll still believe anyway. God is only "real" and "forever" in your own mind; you've essentially invented a reality where God is real because that's what you want. But you cannot sit there and say that "god is real and forever" and expect anyone to believe it just because you say so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
For someone you claim to be fictional, you sure show a lot of resentment and anger here.
Oh here it comes ... the standard "you're just angry" accusation. How about a show of hands. How many of you atheists out there have been accused of being angry simply for disagreeing with the beliefs of a Christian? Yeah, I'm sure most hands went up.
I'm not angry. I'm merely impassioned. It does irk me somewhat that people still believe in these invisible battles for our souls taking place on some other plane of existence where we know nothing about it. And thinking that an omnipotent God would allow this war to go on and on given that he can stop this nonsense at any time. I guess God is getting his jollies fighting this war of yours given that he just sits around letting it occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The opposite is true. Throughout history, man has tried constantly to wipe out Christians and destroy the Bible.
Not on THIS planet. Perhaps you're reading the history of some alternate reality. Sure, before Constantine, Jews and Christians were not treated well and some tried to stamp out the cult before it became too powerful.
But after Constantine, that all changed. And it's been Christianity doing the persecuting ever since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why so much anger and hatred for a book that gives a message of hope, righteous, and love for each other?
Because we don't need the Bible or God to have hope, righteousness, and love for each other. The Bible is perhaps the most blood-soaked book ever written; it comes with a prefabricated list of people to hate. Because Christianity recognizes the OT in many respects, it means that the old hate-laws can be surgically selected and enforced - just like using the Bible to defend slavery, using the Bible to persecute gays, using the Bible to censor and control and manipulate and attack the very fabric of the word "freedom."
That's why.
The Bible has too much baggage attached to it for it to be of any use as a moral guide. I find it ludicrous that a book would tell us to "love thy neighbor" when a thousand pages back, that same God is telling Joshua to commit genocide and infanticide against a number of cities. How can that duality be taken seriously? It can't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The answer is Satan hates the things of God so he works through man.
God and Satan are just the same old personifications of good and evil that a thousand other cultures invented before Christianity. The constant struggle of "right" vs. "wrong" is one we're all familiar with regardless of time or place. Whether you want to call it God and Satan, Yin and Yang, or whatever, that struggle is an internal struggle. It does not come from a devil playing with your mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
By all accounts, Christianty should have been destroyed. The Hebrew culture should have gone into the dustbins of history along with every other ancient culture of that time period. They did not. Instead just as the Bible predicted, they became a nation again, revived a dead language, became a prosperous wealthy country even though they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Do you really think that is just mere concidence?
I don't think it's mere coincidence. It's not like Moses tripped and accidentally created Israel. Oops!
No, Israel survived and other nations went into the dustbin because of the ancient Israelite's very Hitler-esque wars of aggression that totally annihilated other cultures. Normally we would condemn this kind of behavior from a nation. After all, the trials of top Nazi officials at Nuremberg were more about Hitler's war of aggression than they were about crimes against humanity. We tend not to like bully nations and ancient Israel was that and then some.
But for some inexplicable reason, Christians have been duped into admiring Israel and its genocidal practices. In fact, Israel didn't built its own nation - Europe did that. And yeah, right away, Israel came under attack. They won all their battles for two reasons: 1) the Arab states who attacked Israel are largely inept militarily and 2) because America sells Israel its best weaponry, from state of the art F-15E Eagles to MIM-104 Patriot SAM batteries. I'm surprised we haven't sold them any Aegis ships yet.
There is nothing "miraculous" about the survival of Israel - especially when the "to do" list is spelled out in the Bible.
"Gee, step one, create Israel. Check. Step two, revive a dead language. Check. Step three, bring back Israelite currency. Check."
I mean, seriously, one might as well say that an instruction book on how to build a birdhouse is prophetic because it predicts that someone will built a birdhouse. If that's not a "no s--t, Sherlock" moment, I don't know what is.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Nothing I say with convince you, and you can call it silly all you want
I can say the same about you. The only difference is that I actually have evidence for my position. You do not. Thus to maintain your argument, you either have to ignore/dismiss that evidence without really refuting it ... or you have fall back on supernatural claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
but Satan is real and works through the minds of men.
Why should I believe that? What can you bring to the table that would justify a belief in evil demons controlling and manipulating people? Why should a belief in Satan and his Army of Darkness be any more credible than believing in the aliens from Invasion of the Body Snatchers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Here's one example looking at your reality. As far as I know, human beings are the only species to commit suicide, actually going against an evolutionary need to survive and live. How do you explain that one logically?
Except that's not true. Whales by the dozens beach themselves and die every year. They do it on purpose, and it is exactly like suicide. Or the bears that starved themselves to death to avoid the misery of their captivity. I really don't think we give animals enough credit ... they are more than what we perceive.
Logically, however, humans live extraordinarily complicated lives compared to animals. Our needs are FAR greater. Couple that with our complex brains and our complex lives - it stands to reason that humans above all other animals can suffer from depression and decide to take their own lives.
Your statements are very absolute Shirina. Are you being sarcastic?
P.S. Apologies - I haven't been as positive as Jeff - my response was because I was struck by just how sure you appear to be of what you are saying.
If I could pinch -hit for Shirina here, nothing is certain of being totally Right (except Faith, it seems) but what Shirina posted were alternative views to the religious claims and which were supported more or less and increasingly so as regards Exodus, for instance, with evidence, archaeological, historical and Bible critical.
Like saying 'There are no dragons' these claims are shorthand for 'In view of the evidence, rejection of this claim is the correct option'. To maintain belief in the claims is either ignorance of the evidence (which we aim to put right right here) or denial of them, which we call 'blind faith'.
This is a ridiculous premise to base your arguments upon. It also demonstrates the same old conceit of religion that believers continually embrace. Funny how it's okay to say Santa doesn't exist or unicorns don't exist - and no one is going to say, "How do you know?!?" or "Prove it!"
No, only when religion is involved do we have to throw reason and reality out the window and believe without cause in gods and magic. In every other context, such beliefs would be considered insane. But within the context of religion, we cannot assume that a complete absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Well ... why not? Do you honestly sit around believing that, just maybe, a gremlin tangled up all your Christmas lights while they were stored in the garage? Do you accept the possibility that a tiny Bigfoot is living inside your left ear? Do you accept the possibility that, within the next 5 minutes, a small meteor is going to crash into your house and strike you dead? What about 5 minutes after that? And 5 minutes after ... and so on.
The reason why the "argument from silence" is not a fallacy when dealing with religion is because there is an infinite number of things we do not believe in, and we don't believe in them for precisely the SAME reason atheists don't believe in God. There is simply no evidence. If we cannot dismiss religion as false due to the fallacious nature of an "argument from silence," then we cannot justify our disbelief in ANYTHING that someone can invent, imagine, or make up. We would have to accept EVERYTHING as potentially real, and then we would have to decide whether or not to act upon those things, and how to go about it.
If the "argument from silence" applies to a lack of religious belief, then we would be paralyzed with indecision, essentially information overload, because we would have to accept everything and anything as a very real possibility.
I'll address your other points later, but this is all I have time for today. Argument from silence most certainly is a fallacy because on some level, yes we do have the accept the possibility of everything. Could there be pink unicorns on Mars? I have no reason to believe so, but I can't say definitely that there are none. Probability is the key factor here. I have no reason to believe in Santa Claus or unicorns because there has never been any evidence to suggest such things. But faith in Christianity and the Bible is not 100% complete blind faith. We do have numerous evidences, abeit small when seen on their own, but large when combined together. Archaeology lends support to the Bible. The fact that our earliest known writings of man are not from China, South America, Australia etc.. It is Mesopotamia, right in the same area that the Bible begins its story of man. That's a single evidence. A person becoming saved is an evidence. Your arugment only holds if Christianity stands in a null position where there is absolutely not a thimble full of circumstance or evidence that remotely suggests anything could be true with the Christian faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Riiiight ... because the Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't talk about a great flood inflicted upon humanity by an angry god - and only a few people surviving it by riding in a boat. No, that doesn't happen in the story at all ...
There are flood stories all around the world that share lots of details in common with Gilgamesh. Did those people sprout wings and fly to the Middle East to steal their stores?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Because we don't need the Bible or God to have hope, righteousness, and love for each other. The Bible is perhaps the most blood-soaked book ever written; it comes with a prefabricated list of people to hate. Because Christianity recognizes the OT in many respects, it means that the old hate-laws can be surgically selected and enforced - just like using the Bible to defend slavery, using the Bible to persecute gays, using the Bible to censor and control and manipulate and attack the very fabric of the word "freedom."
You want a blood soaked book? Try reading just about any history book. The Bible is blood soaked because it doesn't white washed the evil nature of men. People were savage in OT times. Funny thing is the descendants of those same pagan nations are pretty much savages today. ISIS for example. Leaders of atheist nations have lots of blood on their hands. Stalin for example.
The fact that our earliest known writings of man are not from China, South America, Australia etc.. It is Mesopotamia, right in the same area that the Bible begins its story of man. That's a single evidence.
.
Can't say I blame jeffbase as I had never heard of that myself. 5,000BC? Are they sure of those c14 dates?
That is incredibly early for proto -Mycenean.
However, where the first writing (apart from this) began is not the same as where the first civilization began and that is not the same as where the first community and farming began and that is not the same as where the first humans began.
Try again, Jeff.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-24-2014 at 11:03 AM..
I'll address your other points later, but this is all I have time for today. Argument from silence most certainly is a fallacy because on some level, yes we do have the accept the possibility of everything.
No, actually, 'on some level' we do not have to accept the possibility of everything. Take the meteorite example I used previously. If there is the possibility that a meteorite is going to kill you in the next 5 minutes, wouldn't it behoove you to change your location? Except ... there is the possibility that a meteorite will kill you at this new location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Could there be pink unicorns on Mars? I have no reason to believe so, but I can't say definitely that there are none.
You're flirting with a lot of sophistry here. The real world doesn't operate that way. If you were to ask any 100 sane adults, not a single one would say that we should leave cookies and milk out for Santa tonight because, hey, there's no proof that he doesn't exist, so we should operate as though he does. Most rational adults are very comfortable in dismissing things for which there is no evidence - and the average person does NOT go around thinking that, yeah, just maybe every thing ever conceived of by mortal man actually exists - from sea monsters to Spiderman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Probability is the key factor here.
Sure, I agree. We atheists think the probability of YHWH/Jesus being real is essentially zero - with the caveat that, should YHWH/Jesus ever actually show up, we would change our minds, but not until then. Most atheists rely on "truth" with a small 't' ... that something is true until it's not. Ergo there is no God until there is one. So far, there is no more reason to believe God exists than there is to believe in Santa (which is why Santa gets used so often in debates).
I'd also like to address a vaguely important point ...
IF what you say is true and that, on some level, one has to believe that everything could possibly exist, that means that Christians must accept the possibility that God does not exist and that their entire belief system is completely wrong.
But they don't. Not in any meaningful way. They are ABSOLUTELY certain beyond ANY doubt that God exists and every other religion and form of non-belief is absolutely wrong and false. Thus there is the possibility for everything EXCEPT that God doesn't exist and that atheists have been right all along.
Your own certitude destroys your argument without me saying a word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I have no reason to believe in Santa Claus or unicorns because there has never been any evidence to suggest such things.
Just like there has never been any evidence to suggest YHWH/Jesus is real - except you're willing to toss aside healthy skepticism for the sake of feeling good about death and trying to avoid going to hell. Religion is the penultimate example of people believing in things that have virtually NO chance of being real; probability is thrown out the window when religion comes into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But faith in Christianity and the Bible is not 100% complete blind faith. We do have numerous evidences, abeit small when seen on their own, but large when combined together. Archaeology lends support to the Bible.
Archaeology does not show, nor will it ever show, that Jesus is the son of god and that he was resurrected and taken bodily into heaven. It does not show, nor will it ever show, that Jesus is the messiah, our lord and savior, and only those who worship him will go to heaven. It does not show, nor will it ever show, that Jesus walked on water, cured the sick, healed the blind, turned water into wine or made a crap-ton of fishes out of a single specimen.
At BEST, archaeology MIGHT show that a man named Jesus once existed and that he formed a messianic cult around himself until he became too unruly at which time the Romans crucified him. And that's pushing the capabilities of archaeology to its limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The fact that our earliest known writings of man are not from China, South America, Australia etc.. It is Mesopotamia, right in the same area that the Bible begins its story of man.
First, writing was independently invented in Meso-America ... which means Mesopotamia doesn't get to hog all of the credit. Note that the Meso-Americans did NOT speak or write Arabic, Aramaic, Greek, or any other language associated with the Bible or Mesopotamia.
Human art, on the other hand, goes back tens of thousands of years - WAY before that magical 6,000 year mark. This means that having writing begin at roughly the same time as the Biblical beginning of Man does NOT in any least way support the idea that Man didn't exist until 6,000 years ago.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
A person becoming saved is an evidence.
That is NOT evidence. That's begging the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Your arugment only holds if Christianity stands in a null position where there is absolutely not a thimble full of circumstance or evidence that remotely suggests anything could be true with the Christian faith.
Wrong.
Because what YOU are saying is that it only takes a thimble full of evidence to prove the entirety of Christianity. No. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Discovering that a city mentioned in the Bible really did exist or that there really was a King David does not prove that God exists and that we should all convert immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
There are flood stories all around the world that share lots of details in common with Gilgamesh. Did those people sprout wings and fly to the Middle East to steal their stores?
The wide dispersal of flood stories most likely comes from the fact that every town and city in the ancient world was built next to a river or on a coastline, meaning that every culture has dealt with floods (and true to form, they probably thought the floods were sent as a punishment because, like always, their gods were angry). It doesn't mean there was one big flood that covered the entire world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You want a blood soaked book? Try reading just about any history book. The Bible is blood soaked because it doesn't white washed the evil nature of men.
Who cares about the evil nature of Man when your God was just as bad - nay, worse than any historical figure that ever truly lived. Therein lies the quintessential difference. Your God is supposed to be infinitely and perfectly good, just, fair, compassionate, etc. yet he spends the majority of his time in the OT killing people or telling his followers to kill instead. At least Man has the excuse of being fallible and imperfect. What's God's excuse for his despicable behavior from the very beginning of that book of yours?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
People were savage in OT times.
Yes ... they were. Which is more evidence of the fictitious nature of the Bible. Since the people were savage in those days, so too was the God they worshiped. Human authors could not conceive of any kind of world other than the one they lived in. Thus God never condemned slavery, never condemned adults marrying children, never condemned (and in fact encouraged) wanton slaughter and wars of aggression. The OT God did NOTHING to change the world, did nothing whatsoever to bring about enlightenment.
And that's precisely what one should expect if human beings wrote every word of the Bible without so much as a ... (ahem) thimble full of divine inspiration. The Bible is a book. Period. It was written by savages ergo the stories within it are savage. I mean, seriously, how much "duh!" must there be?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Funny thing is the descendants of those same pagan nations are pretty much savages today.
WHAT descendants? God ordered every last one of them murdered. Even the bloodlines of their goats and camels were destroyed in many cases. If God did his job correctly, there shouldn't have been anyone left alive to make descendants - which was the entire point of the despicable slaughterfests in the first place.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Leaders of atheist nations have lots of blood on their hands. Stalin for example.
It's amazing how this keeps getting brought up despite it being debunked again and again. There has never been an "atheist" nation - only communist nations ruled by dictators with mental problems. The moment Stalin kicked the bucket and USSR began to hold elections (even if all the candidates were members of the communist party), the anti-religion rhetoric ceased almost immediately. You are falsely putting the blame on atheism when it SHOULD be placed on the mental state of tyrannical leaders.
There is no "Stalin for example" because Stalin is the ONLY example - and even then, the attacks on Christianity (which were extremely mild compared with the slaughter that came later under Christianity) happened because a paranoid ruler didn't want the Soviet people answering to two masters. God had to go. It had nothing to do with atheism, and it's hard to say whether the atheists in Russia embraced atheism because they really didn't believe in God ... or if they simply pretended to be atheists because they were scared to death of Stalin and his NKVD (secret police).
In fact, people were so afraid of Stalin that applause for him would go on and on and on because no one wanted to be the first person to stop clapping. A bell had to be installed to let everyone know it's okay to stop clapping. THAT is how much fear Stalin created. As a result, it taints the assertion that atheism was a root cause - or even if it was a cause at all.
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