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Which of the disciples were actually tortured and executed? And more importantly, what evidence do you have for their fates? I thought that their martyrdom was a later addition to the Jesus mythology rather than a historical fact.
The death of the apostles are, so far as I know, articles of church tradition, and taken with a grain of salt even by most Christians (except when making "arguments" like the one you're replying to, when, of course, it's convenient to be credulous). The most accepted is the fate of Peter, supposedly requesting that he be crucified upside-down -- a tale beloved no doubt for its faux humility. I am not aware of any independent sources confirming these stories, and a quick scan of the Internet shows mostly Christian / apologist sites touting these tales. If I were to look into it deeply I'd be unsurprised to see a smidgen of circumstantial evidence from secular sources confirming it, although it'd probably be unclear whether they were simply repeating folk tales themselves. But offhand I'm not finding even that.
But even if every Christian since then has been eager to die a martyr, it doesn't prove anything except their belief in an ideology and morality. Unless one is willing to argue that religiously motivated suicide bombers are some sort of proof of the validity and veracity of their own religious ideations.
Sometimes I'm tempted to ask people who use this argument if THEY PERSONALLY are willing to die horribly in searing pain for Jesus. Somehow I rather doubt it, at least for those of us in the West. Although here again, if a few do it, then social reciprocity and herd mentality and other such effects could quickly take over and Jesus would get the credit for it instead.
The death of the apostles are, so far as I know, articles of church tradition, and taken with a grain of salt even by most Christians (except when making "arguments" like the one you're replying to, when, of course, it's convenient to be credulous). The most accepted is the fate of Peter, supposedly requesting that he be crucified upside-down -- a tale beloved no doubt for its faux humility. I am not aware of any independent sources confirming these stories, and a quick scan of the Internet shows mostly Christian / apologist sites touting these tales. If I were to look into it deeply I'd be unsurprised to see a smidgen of circumstantial evidence from secular sources confirming it, although it'd probably be unclear whether they were simply repeating folk tales themselves. But offhand I'm not finding even that.
But even if every Christian since then has been eager to die a martyr, it doesn't prove anything except their belief in an ideology and morality. Unless one is willing to argue that religiously motivated suicide bombers are some sort of proof of the validity and veracity of their own religious ideations.
Sometimes I'm tempted to ask people who use this argument if THEY PERSONALLY are willing to die horribly in searing pain for Jesus. Somehow I rather doubt it, at least for those of us in the West. Although here again, if a few do it, then social reciprocity and herd mentality and other such effects could quickly take over and Jesus would get the credit for it instead.
There are nothing beyond them. The fact that some of them might of been executed is believable, not all of them as Church traditions claim. Although I guess you could say John wasn't, although he died in prison essentially. Most the traditions were penned at a time when persecution was more normal for Christians. As such, having a link back to the early Fathers was essential.
No, but you can't prove a resurrection has ever happened either.
We have several historical documents, along with the testimony of the early believers, and the fact that a church started because of it. The evidence seems to point to it actually happening.
Now your turn. Oh wait...you said yourself that you can't prove otherwise. I guess the question is settled.
There are nothing beyond them. The fact that some of them might of been executed is believable, not all of them as Church traditions claim. Although I guess you could say John wasn't, although he died in prison essentially. Most the traditions were penned at a time when persecution was more normal for Christians. As such, having a link back to the early Fathers was essential.
here is how scientist work. I would extend that to this is how rational people think weather in the sciences or not.
The claim. "he rose"
today we see 7 billion people live. And then we see seven billion people die. We try in a lab to bring things back to life. We see that after a certain point we can't do it. And we have never seen anybody rise. Either has any Christian alive today or in the last 2000 years.
ok, now what? Jesus taught reason and common sense above all else.
What is more reasonable to say.
"Jesus rose as those 3 people said"
or
'those people told a story like people did back then. Using exaggerated claims."
it does not lesson the christian god by using common sense. In fact, I claim it strengthens it.
We have several historical documents, along with the testimony of the early believers, and the fact that a church started because of it. The evidence seems to point to it actually happening.
Now your turn. Oh wait...you said yourself that you can't prove otherwise. I guess the question is settled.
historical fact. Really, that's what I heard him say in his sermon yesterday when I accompanied my parents to church for Easter Sunday. Is this the kind of nonsense that pastors tell their congregations?
This was likely prompted by the most recent false claim by Bill O'Reilly that his movie "Killing Jesus" is a historical account.
There are lots of confident pronouncements from pulpits that get repeated as campfire stories, with no more justification than that they originated with a trusted authority-figure who abused that trust by spouting what people are willing to hear and believe.
I remember the gospels being repeatedly asserted to be eyewitness accounts when in actual fact they are anything but. As for "historians agree" ... no. Just no. That is like creationists saying that one of their "scientists" has a "scientific theory" for how the flood worked. In fact he is a mechanical engineer, not a scientist, and he has a hypothesis, not a theory. And his ideas are advanced only in creationist literature, and not even embraced by some creationists.
A closer look always reveals the lack of substantiation and generally the lack of honesty for such claims.
I would trust an engineer over a scientist any day. A scientist would spit out a theory and pass it off as fact. An engineer would give their best hypothesis, have the technical formulae to back it up, and wouldn't have some political organization giving them grants only if they agree with everyone else. Because this is what happens to scientists.
Again, you guys are missing the point. A mass shared hallucination is pretty much extremely rare, if not impossible. And there are 12 people, introduced by nobody, from different classes and social circles, who all suddenly believe the same way. History or not, this is a human-shaped gap. These followers (1) verify the existence of Jesus, and (2) verify him to be the Son of God, even under torture. You can't simply dismiss people's lives from the history books, because if Jesus and these people had not existed... okay, where did the religion come from? Where?
Same question creation theologians can ask all day. Stuff doesn't come from nowhere. So where did the universe come from? Where did this religion come from? How did it spread with no followers?
Quote:
here is how scientist work. I would extend that to this is how rational people think weather in the sciences or not.
The claim. "he rose"
today we see 7 billion people live. And then we see seven billion people die. We try in a lab to bring things back to life. We see that after a certain point we can't do it. And we have never seen anybody rise. Either has any Christian alive today or in the last 2000 years.
ok, now what? Jesus taught reason and common sense above all else.
What is more reasonable to say.
"Jesus rose as those 3 people said"
Did they say that in a controlled laboratory environment, Jesus came back to life? Or, maybe you'd better re-read it.
13That same day two of Jesus’ followers were walking to the village of Emmaus, seven milesc from Jerusalem. 14As they walked along they were talking about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things, Jesus himself suddenly came and began walking with them. 16But God kept them from recognizing him. 17He asked them, “What are you discussing so intently as you walk along?”
They stopped short, sadness written across their faces. 18Then one of them, Cleopas, replied, “You must be the only person in Jerusalem who hasn’t heard about all the things that have happened there the last few days.” 19“What things?” Jesus asked.
“The things that happened to Jesus, the man from Nazareth,” they said. “He was a prophet who did powerful miracles, and he was a mighty teacher in the eyes of God and all the people. 20But our leading priests and other religious leaders handed him over to be condemned to death, and they crucified him. 21We had hoped he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel. This all happened three days ago. 22“Then some women from our group of his followers were at his tomb early this morning, and they came back with an amazing report. 23They said his body was missing, and they had seen angels who told them Jesus is alive! 24Some of our men ran out to see, and sure enough, his body was gone, just as the women had said.” 25Then Jesus said to them, “You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures. 26Wasn’t it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?” 27Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. 28By this time they were nearing Emmaus and the end of their journey. Jesus acted as if he were going on, 29but they begged him, “Stay the night with us, since it is getting late.” So he went home with them. 30As they sat down to eat,d he took the bread and blessed it. Then he broke it and gave it to them. 31Suddenly, their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And at that moment he disappeared!
We are not talking about a resuscitation. Which, BY THE WAY, people have been legally pronounced dead for under an hour before, and have been brought back from the brink.
Have you ever met someone who reminded you of what you love about another person, who has died/left? It's like that person is with you again. The resurrection is not a medical resuscitation, Jesus didn't like Lazarus get raised only to die again later on. He became a new being. He became something other than human. Jesus was about logic, yes. He was also about warm fuzzy stuff like hope and love.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 04-08-2015 at 12:34 PM..
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts. They were written by eyewitnesses within about 20 years of the crucifixion. John, actually, was written much later, but by an eyewitness. I never used the term "contemporary". I make no claim that they were written during Christ's lifetime, or within a very short time after.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts. They were written by eyewitnesses within about 20 years of the crucifixion. John, actually, was written much later, but by an eyewitness.
Your claim would be contrary to the conclusions by the majority of theologians. Besides, you have no originals of any of the documents, only translations of copies or copies. BTW. 20 years after is not contemporaneous.
And...which of the apostles were present at Jesus' birth?
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