Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have never once encountered an atheist proselytizing.....The only spouting off in public I have ever had to endure has been from Christians...I can't imagine what an atheist would proselytize about, can you?
In all my life that I can remember I've only seen behind a car (in public)
1 "atheist" sticker behind a car,
2-3 "evolve fish" labels,
8-15 "family" cartoon stickers
8-15 "coexist" stickers 100+ "Jesus fish" labels
1-2 cross stickers
and 1 virgen Mary full rear-window see-through sticker
I have never once encountered an atheist proselytizing.....The only spouting off in public I have ever had to endure has been from Christians...I can't imagine what an atheist would proselytize about, can you?
It happens more often than you'd think, and it's pretty uncomfortable because of the way they do it.
They don't try to persuade you you to believe in anything. It's more of a peer pressure type deal where you're in a crowd, and you realize the people that are otherwise your friends are antagonistic to Christianity. Not so much trying to convert you, as convince you that you're stupid/outsider for believing in "silly superstitions" like that. And you can't say anything because you'd be lumped into the same group as the sort of overzealous prick that got himself chucked from a job because he had to tell everyone about it.
I'm a theist, but I don't care whether you are or not. Please extend me the same courtesy of not calling my beliefs idiotic.
I've seen more evolution fishes than Jesus fishes, actually. Seen a couple of Cthulhu labels and spaghetti monster labels. I have a Coexist label on my car I think (or did on my last car). Never seen the others.
Annie, ex-Muslim. That explains eveything. Although presumably they would have gotten tired of their own religion forcing itself down their throat, pretty much the concept of Islam is built around a complete lack of personal boundaries.
For some reason, that I don't completely understand, there are those who put forth an astounding effort to get others to believe what they profess to believe. Common sense would lead me to believe that in order for them to be comfortable with their own beliefs, they need to convince everyone around them their belief has merit.
But another part of me says common sense is not at all part of the equation regarding their beliefs. And that's what I don't understand.
For some reason, that I don't completely understand, there are those who put forth an astounding effort to get others to believe what they profess to believe. Common sense would lead me to believe that in order for them to be comfortable with their own beliefs, they need to convince everyone around them their belief has merit.
But another part of me says common sense is not at all part of the equation regarding their beliefs. And that's what I don't understand.
Your common sense is fairly sound here, I would say. But I would suggest that what is going on here is an evolved instinct to have one's own tribe as large as possible to protect the Identity and hopefully, dominate all the other tribes in the area.
And we atheists are doing it too. Yes we are. However, it has three advantages over the Other tribal Instincts.
(1) we are aware of this instinct (or we have the rationality to become aware of it)
(2) the rational worldview of which atheism is a subsection (addressing the single issue of god -claims and, by extension the validity of religions), means that - if reason and evidence counts for anything, atheism is correct and a rational worldview is the right one to have.
(3) such a worldview does not seek to disempower believers of their religious beliefs, but to guarantee that no one religion can disempower any of the others.
Someday I'm going to start my own religion. I'm already an ordained minister; I could be open for business by this time next week. Wonder where I can get some collection plates? I'll need a lot of them, and big ones too. And I'll need to start a fund for when I get persecuted, which of course will happen on a regular basis, as we see here every day.
I think we should give jeffbase40 a break, and I speak as a gay, Vietnamese, non-Christian man. I have tripple disadvantages, and I feel completely fine. I'm not afraid of outspoken Christians. The ones who pretend to be nice to me and discreetly stab me behind my back are the dangerous ones.
Based on my understanding of this story, this is how I am going to deal with a circumstance like this. I may be wrong if I misunderstand the article.
I think this man Chris Routson is not an honest person. He tried to become friend with the first lesbian colleague to proselytize her. Having said that, when she decided to accept his invitation, she took her own risk. If she found his recommendation offensive, she could simply unfriend him. If he proselytized her again in person, she could have told him to back off. If he did it again for the 3rd time, she could report him. That would be clearly harassment.
For the second co-worker, it seemed like it was her fault for engaging in a conversation with him. She could have told him that she was not interested in talking about her sexual orientation with him. If he insisted, that would be harassment.
The story is ambiguous, so that is what I get. It seems to me that he was fired because his "inappropriate" behavior was repeated (but not with a same colleague).
If jeffbase40 or any Christian suddenly approaches me and talks about my sexual orientation in a judgmental tone in a work setting, I would allow them to speak. I think that Christians have a right to proselytize whenever they want. I will them that much unless I'm on bed and cannot speak. Nevertheless, they have to respect my decision not to listen to them. When I say "I'm not interested. Leave me alone", they have to back off. The lesbians in this story seems to lead this man on. If they say no to him and he keeps on going, they could report him.
I admit that Christians are annoying. Before I moved to my current place, there were numerous times they knocked on my door nonstop. I was always polite to them and let them talk about their faith without interruption. I have eventually learned that these types of people won't leave me alone until they can meet me and say at least something about their religion. If I had time, I let them talk and only replied with "yes", "no", "no, thanks", "I'm not interested". When I was busy, I simply said "I'm in a middle of something." I think Christians simply want to make sure that they invoke Jesus in you. From my experience, as soon as they can ask me the question "Have you experienced Jesus in your life?", "Do you know that the path you're following is wrong?", or "Can I speak with you about God?", etc, they would not bother me again if I tell them straightly that I have no interest.
It was never a pleasant experience speaking with Christians, but I learned how to coexist with them. They like to provoke people, and the best way to deal with them is to be nice to them and return with a statement "I am not interested."
I'm not saying that my way is the high way. However, I'm not a born American, and I can deal with Christians in a polite manner to deter them. I believe Americans are thick-skinned enough to do this.
For some reason, that I don't completely understand, there are those who put forth an astounding effort to get others to believe what they profess to believe. Common sense would lead me to believe that in order for them to be comfortable with their own beliefs, they need to convince everyone around them their belief has merit.
But another part of me says common sense is not at all part of the equation regarding their beliefs. And that's what I don't understand.
I think it's either some kind of rush about being a hero for their faith, kinda like being a hippie type is sorta like being on an adventure.
Or it's a need to convince themselves that they are not making the wrong choice. Since they can't do that they convert others.
Or a mix. If you are an emotionally stable follower you don't need to tell anyone. But such people also sit at home doing nothing with their faith.
Arequipa as long as 3 continues to be true, I have no beef with atheism. There are however those that do go out of their way to disempower as you put it. I met about one (he was a real jerk, because I wanted to avoid religious discussion, he found out I was a theist and spent the night being a nuisance). One is enough for me.
Albert, the only way you get persecuted is if you are obnoxious. I have my own religion, and nobody persecutes me about that. They harass me more about being trans, but still not major. If you force people to be kind they persecute you. Or they rewrite your Bible to allow their bigotry (prior to the King James Version, bibles did not have the word homosexual in it, but good luck getting a hold of one). If you force people to be the same or to be oppressed, you have a despotism. You have to reinforce despotism with gear and violence or ppl definitely attack you. The Taoists are famous for almost never in history persecuting others or being persecuted themselves. They do it by being completely aloof from everyone else.
Khminh I think this is mostly correct. However another point. You tell them you don't care about what they are preaching but would they please leave their religious literature there (book of Mormon, etc). This serves few purposes. It flatters them in most cases, putting them off guard. It makes them feel like you partially agreed with them, which is enough. The book could gather dust for all you care, or you just shelve it. Second, often times, if they sent out followers to convert people, this is part of their call. They are off the hook if they gave away some bibles. Third, if any of that group comes again you can be like "already have your bible/whatever" and they don't need to bother you.
Alternatively, you can turn this into proselytizing judo, where you invite them into your house, show them your culture and try to convert them. Never seen this done, but it would be totally awesome.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 09-20-2015 at 05:00 AM..
The story is ambiguous, so that is what I get. It seems to me that he was fired because his "inappropriate" behavior was repeated (but not with a same colleague).
That is my problem with the story, it's not journalistically sound, it is basically repeated gossip and we can have little confidence that we know all the facts. As presented it sounds like the guy was guilty of little more than being overzealous and obnoxious, and that, as you suggest, he may have been "lead on". But in my experience MOST people are conflict-avoidant and can't, as you suggest, be up front that they are not interested with sufficient firmness. And LGBT people can be paralyzed with fear and very intimidated because of life experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khminh
If jeffbase40 or any Christian suddenly approaches me and talks about my sexual orientation in a judgmental tone in a work setting, I would allow them to speak. I think that Christians have a right to proselytize whenever they want.
This is a very asian social strategy in such situations and it is admirable, but my concern is that in most Western societies it would be misunderstood as actual interest and openness, depending on how it is handled on both sides. In your case it sounds as if you have sufficient clarity and firmness that you can convey the notion with your actions, that although you respect their right to both hold and express their beliefs, you are not interested in actually embracing them. I am not so sure that everyone I've seen use this tactic, follows through to that extent, but rather, endures the whole sales pitch and extracts themselves from the situation as soon as they can without clearly explaining that they are not interested.
And some of these proselytizers have trouble taking even an explicit "no" for an answer as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khminh
It was never a pleasant experience speaking with Christians, but I learned how to coexist with them. They like to provoke people, and the best way to deal with them is to be nice to them and return with a statement "I am not interested."
I'm not saying that my way is the high way. However, I'm not a born American, and I can deal with Christians in a polite manner to deter them. I believe Americans are thick-skinned enough to do this.
We are also, in general, far too impatient. Your approach takes both time and patience and, speaking for myself, I am not bound by any implicit code of politeness to TAKE the time with someone who is impertinent and disrespectful in the first place, inherently, by first of all assuming they have the right to talk to me about deeply personal matters such as (un)beliefs; that they have in any way been invited to do so; and that my time is unimportant enough that it can be used up on such matters.
Which is in no way to say either that you are wrong or that I am right. I suspect our approaches / attitudes are BOTH right -- for US. And I also suspect that if a proselytizer caught me on my best day when I happened to have the time and inclination I might not be more like you; and that if they caught you on your worst day, you might be a bit more like me ;-)
Also of course I am white, heterosexual, and upper middle class, which is a luxury you're not afforded. In your situation I might feel the need to be much more accommodating because it would literally be a survival strategy, particularly in some areas.
I appreciate you sharing your experience, it is food for thought.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
