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I've said it before and I'll say it again....being the heathen I am....Satan was the only supernatural entity that didn't lie to Adam and eve.
Satan was a Boy Scout compared to Jehovah The Genocidal Narcissistic Maniac.
No human or mythical villains' deeds combined rival his when it comes to epitomizing evil.
Reconciling that "God" as a father figure, and an aspect of Jesus, AND as someone/thing worthy of worship, was one of the impossible contradictions that drove me from any form of Christianity.
Here is the problem I have with it. Adam & Even didn't know right from wrong until AFTER they ate the fruit. They were childlike & had no idea is was bad to disobey God. It was until after that the understood what they had done & realized it was wrong. So yeah your right it was a trick.
This.
The usual fallback is, "Adam and Eve CHOSE to do wrong."
They "chose" as entirely innocent people with obviously absolutely zero clue that anything bad would happen. They were afraid at first, because one parent figure - God - told them to be. Then another parent figure - the snake - came in to say, "No, actually, you'll be okay." So, well, it must be okay after all, then. Kind of like when Mom tells you not to do something, then Dad tells you to go ahead. As a tiny child you don't really think about that - you don't think "Mom lied" or "Why would one adult think it was okay and the other wouldn't?" - you just think of things as they happen. Mom saying "no" was a long time ago - even if it was yesterday, in the child's mind, that was a long time ago - NOW Dad is saying "yes." So okay, NOW it must be yes.
Since A&E had no knowledge of "good v. evil" according to the story, they were in that way even more innocent than a human toddler of today.
How the hell could ANYBODY say that's proof that mankind is actually deep down bad and prone to "sin" and that we are "at fault" for our own "fall"?
Based on two people who, having never in their lives had a single negative experience nor even have the capacity to tell good from bad (yet), were told by a smarter, authority figure to do something, so they did it?
Ridiculous story that any child could poke holes through. OTOH if somehow it really did happen (pretty darned doubtful, but "if"), then God truly is evil. Is there really any other way to say that or any other conclusion to come to? If God literally set up two people more innocent than toddlers to suffer and ultimately die and all their descendants to have the same, then He is evil. Period.
There IS no other conclusion.
MartinEden:
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I've said it before and I'll say it again....being the heathen I am....Satan was the only supernatural entity that didn't lie to Adam and eve.
I've said the same thing and had people freak out on me and think I was "a satanist" (LOL!) but...isn't it true? "God only meant they'd EVENTUALLY die" is no excuse for God having told the truth, either, in case anybody's all set with that one. Saying they'd "die" was deliberately misleading. Remember he was speaking to the experience equivalent OF TODDLERS. Come on. He lied. But not the snake. I just find that a really interesting part of the story and have always wondered whether the author(s) was/were trying to sneak in a rebellious (against establishment) "Why SHOULDN'T people think for themselves?" in there or something.
The usual fallback is, "Adam and Eve CHOSE to do wrong."
They "chose" as entirely innocent people with obviously absolutely zero clue that anything bad would happen. They were afraid at first, because one parent figure - God - told them to be. Then another parent figure - the snake - came in to say, "No, actually, you'll be okay." So, well, it must be okay after all, then. Kind of like when Mom tells you not to do something, then Dad tells you to go ahead. As a tiny child you don't really think about that - you don't think "Mom lied" or "Why would one adult think it was okay and the other wouldn't?" - you just think of things as they happen. Mom saying "no" was a long time ago - even if it was yesterday, in the child's mind, that was a long time ago - NOW Dad is saying "yes." So okay, NOW it must be yes.
Here is a couple of other things. Not only did God tell them not to but he pointed out the VERY TREE that he told them not to eat from. So he was telling two people who were VERY childlike in thought not to eat of said tree. Also he KNEW that Satan at any time would come & tell them that it was okay to eat from it.
So much for freewill.
Is this what you would smugly and smilingly look down on a three-year-old and tell her as she's being slowly raped to death by Mom's boyfriend?
Just curious.
"Be joyful! God has determined this is the best way to bring about good in your life."
Hello JerZ,
Thanks for bringing this up.
Let's look at it this way: First of all, I wouldn't be telling the mother of the three year old that, as her daughter is being raped to death. I'd be calling the police on her and the boyfriend and probably do a citizens arrest on the perpetrators until the police arrive. This too is out of God that they be arrested and imprisoned.
But you bring up something as horrible as that as if to put God's sovereignty in the worst light possible. But God needs no PR men to shield Him. You see JerZ, the worst sin in the universe was already committed: the murder of God's perfect Son, Jesus Christ. And it is through that death that all mankind will eventually be saved. And God made sure the murder would take place.
We are all sinners. We all need saved. All our sins will be justified when placed in the crucible of Christ's death. Romans 5:18,19 tells us that all mankind will one day be justified, i.e., set right. Their sins, their murders, their lies, thieving, rape etc. will all be justified.
Pretty sick, right? The twisting and turning Eusie has to do to make his view correct is mind bending. That is why I have asked him a few time if he hurt himself coming up with some excuse.
You did? What post was that you posted requesting me that? Please inform us.
Hello JerZ,
Thanks for bringing this up.
Let's look at it this way: First of all, I wouldn't be telling the mother of the three year old that, as her daughter is being raped to death. I'd be calling the police on her and the boyfriend and probably do a citizens arrest on the perpetrators until the police arrive. This too is out of God that they be arrested and imprisoned.
But you bring up something as horrible as that as if to put God's sovereignty in the worst light possible. But God needs no PR men to shield Him. You see JerZ, the worst sin in the universe was already committed: the murder of God's perfect Son, Jesus Christ. And it is through that death that all mankind will eventually be saved. And God made sure the murder would take place.
We are all sinners. We all need saved. All our sins will be justified when placed in the crucible of Christ's death. Romans 5:18,19 tells us that all mankind will one day be justified, i.e., set right. Their sins, their murders, their lies, thieving, rape etc. will all be justified.
According to you however, that girl deserved to be raped, because, you know, God had to teach her something. That is a very sick mind you have.
You did? What post was that you posted requesting me that? Please inform us.
I didn't request anything of you. I asked you if you hurt yourself coming up with excuses. It was in this very thread.... Since you are too lazy to look it up, and can't remember apparently...
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Originally Posted by southernbored
Did you hurt yourself? If your belief requires you to come up with this much justification, you may want to take a hard look in the mirror. This is you right now:
God is good, so God does bad. Bad exists because God is good. God does all these horrible things because he loves us, therefore, bad is good. But bad is only good if done by God. If done by humans bad is bad. But since God is good, he does bad for good.
There has to be a rare genetic mutation among people with views like Euse. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. This is the 21st Century and it's not very common to find minds like his in our society.
And some are insane not to believe like I do.
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I wonder how Euse see's the good in a total stranger driving 200 miles to commit a random act of murder against a 6 year old boy who was sleeping?
How do you know it was 200 miles? What if it was 201 miles? Or 150? or the next door neighbor? Would that make a difference?
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Evil serves no good purpose.
Actually evil does serve a great purpose. It is to humble the proudness of humanity
Ecc_1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom
concerning all that is done under the heavens:
it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity
to humble them by it.
When I look around the world and learn of the horrific senseless evil acts it makes me wonder why?
Why has this been going on since the beginning of recorded history? I realized in my early 20's that these evils we hear of will continue until we cease to exist.
There is no good that comes from evil.
So far I have not been proven wrong.[/quote]
I proved you wrong.
God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He created it Himself. He planted it in the very midst of the garden Himself. He created the crafty serpent to lure Eve. He used Eve to lure Adam. He created Adam and Eve flesh knowing full well in advance that those in flesh are not able to please Him. This evil is not God's end goal for mankind. Good is God's end goal. Right after Adam and Eve sinned God told them about the Saviour to come. This was not "Plan B."
The evil we see in the world today is the result of Adam and Eve disobeying and death passing through into all mankind and for that, all sin. So the buck stops with God. But again, if this was all, if there was no remediation from this dying sinful condition then God would not be justified in creating this evil. But since all mankind eventually will be saved, since all mankind will have learned from the knowledge of good and evil, God is justified in what He does with HIS creation.
I didn't request anything of you. I asked you if you hurt yourself coming up with excuses. It was in this very thread.... Since you are too lazy to look it up, and can't remember apparently...
You did not ask me if I hurt myself coming up with an explanation. Please desist from lying in the future.
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Saying they'd "die" was deliberately misleading. Remember he was speaking to the experience equivalent OF TODDLERS. Come on. He lied. But not the snake. I just find that a really interesting part of the story and have always wondered whether the author(s) was/were trying to sneak in a rebellious (against establishment) "Why SHOULDN'T people think for themselves?" in there or something.
