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Ok, we all know the trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (I've always kind of felt sorry for the Holy Ghost because it's the other two who get all the attention and I can't even figure out what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be or what it does). Seriously though, do believers think that the trinity began with the birth of Jesus? How could there have been a trinity say 3,000 years ago before Jesus even existed?
Ok, we all know the trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (I've always kind of felt sorry for the Holy Ghost because it's the other two who get all the attention and I can't even figure out what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be or what it does). Seriously though, do believers think that the trinity began with the birth of Jesus? How could there have been a trinity say 3,000 years ago before Jesus even existed?
The Trinity was never practiced by the Jewish religion. The Jews/Muslims who believe in the same god as both claim Abraham as their forefather. However the Jews claim line of decent through Isaac, Muslims through Ishmael , Abraham's older son. Both never believed or taught a triune God.
The surrounding nations around Israel like the Assyrians, Greeks, etc had numerous Triune gods for hundreds if not thousands of years, so the concept was nothing new.
It seems to have been introduced into Christianity around the year 300 at the Council of Nicea where Empirer Constantine was trying to hold together what was left of the pagan Roman empire. It appears to have been more of a political move to combine Christianity with Pagandom to hold together what was left of Rome and appease all sides concerned. Constantine was no christian, but apparently had some vision of three crosses (also a pagan symbol according to two books "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop & "The Non-Christian Cross" by JD Parsons ) which supposedly lead to his conversion. Basically he and other religious hierarchy at the time devised an official christian religion as they saw fit.
Last edited by bluepacific; 07-26-2008 at 09:41 AM..
Christians will generally tell you that the Trinity has always been around, i.e. eternal, although the word itself is not found in the Bible. There are other Bible verses, but I can only think of one verse, at the moment, that is used to support this doctrine. It is found in Genesis 1:26. It reads, "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...'".
But, the next verse then reads, "So God created man in hisown image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", (King James scholars were slightly redundant, weren't they?), which was always confusing to me, despite explainations from preachers, Sunday School teachers, etc. Since it is difficult to explain, satisfactorily, Christians are then told that it's a mystery to be accepted on faith. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, that's simply how it's taught, or such was always my experience.
Of course, there are also Christians who don't believe in the Trinity, but they are not considered Christians, by the "true" Christians.
It appears to have been more of a political move to combine Christianity with Pagandom to hold together what was left of Rome and appease all sides concerned.
And we know ( okay, I admit that I might be the only 1) how Jesus thought of politics.
The Trinity was never practiced by the Jewish religion. The Jews/Muslims who believe in the same god as both claim Abraham as their forefather. However the Jews claim line of decent through Isaac, Muslims through Ishmael , Abraham's older son. Both never believed or taught a triune God.
The surrounding nations around Israel like the Assyrians, Greeks, etc had numerous Triune gods for hundreds if not thousands of years, so the concept was nothing new.
It seems to have been introduced into Christianity around the year 300 at the Council of Nicea where Empirer Constantine was trying to hold together what was left of the pagan Roman empire. It appears to have been more of a political move to combine Christianity with Pagandom to hold together what was left of Rome and appease all sides concerned. Constantine was no christian, but apparently had some vision of three crosses (also a pagan symbol according to two books "The Two Babylons" & "The Unchristian Cross" ) which supposedly lead to his conversion. Basically he and other religious hierarchy at the time devised an official christian religion as they saw fit.
This is my understanding also. 3 has been a mystical number for as long as we have been able to discern religious belief. Among most pagan religions it is representative of the 3 stages of life - childhood, adult, old age. Or more starkly, birth, life, death.
Constantine resisted becoming Christian for most of his life. His mother was a Christian and lobbied for him to become one. Very late in his life, he supposedly saw the 3 crosses (again that mystical 3) and converted while forcing the entire empire to convert as well. Or, he saw the growing religion's influence, the waning Roman ability to control the populaces, and saw an authoritarian religion that would be useful to control the populace. Making it mandatory and specifying a specific dogma were his great legacies to the world and helped plunge the western world into the Dark Ages.
It is easy to see that the Christian trinity was created to make a trinity so the new religion would feel more "right" to those pagans. But unlike the rather obvious symbology to reality the pagan conception had, the Council of Nicea's mandate created the confusing Holy Ghost. Even so, if you look at the ancestry of the concept, Jesus = childhood, God = adulthood, Holy Ghost = death or waning life.
My understanding is that the Jews had only the good/evil construct - God and the Devil. This was the Persian invention from Zoroastrianism, the basis of the Jewish religion.
I'm sure most believers in the Christian religion will claim otherwise and throw in some verses that do not illuminate what the heck the holy Ghost is, as usual. But most of them have little understanding of their own history.
Christians will generally tell you that the Trinity has always been around, i.e. eternal, although the word itself is not found in the Bible. There are other Bible verses, but I can only think of one verse, at the moment, that is used to support this doctrine. It is found in Genesis 1:26. It reads, "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...'".
There are some who think the original, or at least some of the original, story was a husband/wife dual god, somewhat similar to the Zeus/Hera thing.
Ok, we all know the trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (I've always kind of felt sorry for the Holy Ghost because it's the other two who get all the attention and I can't even figure out what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be or what it does). Seriously though, do believers think that the trinity began with the birth of Jesus? How could there have been a trinity say 3,000 years ago before Jesus even existed?
Yes this believer believes that the Trinity has always existed. Genesis 1:26 "Then God said let Us make people in Our image, to be like ourselves......I believe the Us here is the Trinity. I also believe Jesus has always existed. John 1:1 "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and He was God".
And I also believe that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same person.
Yes this believer believes that the Trinity has always existed. Genesis 1:26 "Then God said let Us make people in Our image, to be like ourselves......I believe the Us here is the Trinity. I also believe Jesus has always existed. John 1:1 "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and He was God".
And I also believe that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same person.
Yes person, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, they are not an "it" they are a person.
If you have or have had direct experience of Spirit, why in the world would you be labeling that as "person"?
"God" is not a "person" I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA ... Nor is the living spirit.
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). Seriously though, do believers think that the trinity began with the birth of Jesus? How could there have been a trinity say 3,000 years ago before Jesus even existed?
), which was always confusing to me, despite explainations from preachers, Sunday School teachers, etc. Since it is difficult to explain, satisfactorily, Christians are then told that it's a mystery to be accepted on faith. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, that's simply how it's taught, or such was always my experience.
And we know (
okay, I admit that I might be the only 1) how Jesus thought of politics.
