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I hereby set this thread up as an area where religions/atheists/whatever can talk about world issues like poverty, suffering, etc. without getting into a belief war.
That said, I fully expect someone to be divisive and create drama because they feel ignored.
Anyway...
Today at church we were talking about "many gifts, one spirit". To give context, the background of this lesson was that people in the early church thought that speaking in tongues was THE spiritual gift, and all the others were inferior. But, they said, all gifts are valuable.
The sermon was about how it's not up to us to try to change other people, that people are on their own path, and there were more important things. And suddenly, something clicked.
Look, when you get down to it, when you look at anyone who lets dogma take over, it's always the same story:
Muslim - Allah is great. He gave us the final word of God, and it cannot be disputed. All of you who do not believe as we, are infidels. Or something.
Christians - I believe in God. And Jesus saved me. Unlike you other people.
Atheists - What's with this stupid people? All their superstitious mumbo jumbo! Why can't they see things in a logical sane way?
Do you see a common thread here? I hope so, I was trying to make it clear.
God has not smited (smitten?) Atheists, Muslims, Satanists, whatever else, just for their beliefs.
Some people who are violent, enslave/oppress others, or do things like rape or murder, surely deserve death alot more than people things that have nothing to do with anything but themselves.
If we want a country or world that is not only tolerant but acceptant of other faiths and lifestyles, we need to start by being the same. That means, no "kill the believers/unbelievers" but "how can we make this work?"
So, with that in mind, I want this to be not about "I believe this or that, and you are wrong/evil/stupid." But more an article about... ummmm, what problems are going on in your area, and using different perspectives to solve problems.
I'm not very hopeful for the productiveness of this thread, but hey, let's try. Each of us has gifts to offer. And each faith has gifts to offer.
Anyone wanna start? What's something you as a (whatever) are concerned about?
Alright, consumer debt is at an all time high. Our economic system abuses and manipulates people into valuing there worth on the quantity of their possessions rather than the quality of their life. Debt in general is a serious problem, particularly with younger people who go massively in debt just to get an education, forcing many of them into garbage jobs they don't care about so they can pay off the insane loans with an over the top interest rate.
In terms of how this relates to social issues, people don't have the time, energy, or resources to care about the most serious of social issues, so we get trapped into pretending we care about gay marriage or something. Let's face it, the average person doesn't give a damn about that. Why would they? Most people recognize it as being something that doesn't effect them in any way, so to resist it or demand it is largely a waste of time. There are the gay people who do want it for valid reasons, then their are the idiots on either side who either claim it will mark the downfall of our society or that speaking ill of it should be a criminal offense.
The fact is, it's easier to talk about trivial social issues than to address issues of hunger, war, or poverty, despite those being objectively more important than rather or not a trans gendered man can get cheap hormones or whatever.
Ultimately, we need to stabilize our economy. My preferred method would be opening up free trade, taking out corporate lobbyism, and bring a focus onto local or regional economies rather than national or international economies. Reduce the need for college and bring the tuition costs down so that education doesn't force young people into serious debt.
And in terms of war, one thing that can easily be done is to stop intervening in foreign affairs so much. We don't need a military presence in the Middle East. It's unjust and not helping anyone.
I think this thread doesn't really belong in R&S unless we want to limit ourselves to discussion of religious or spiritual diagnoses / solutions to social problems at which point we are just back to arguing about dogma (or lack thereof) anyway.
Any other religion / spirituality-free discussion of social issues is going to end up talking either politics or philosophy and we already have forums for that.
There is no way to discuss the human condition or social problems without talking about beliefs and interpretations of known data, whether religious, philosophical or political. As it is, the three tend to influence each other and it's difficult to confine discussion to one dimension / facet anyway.
I think this thread doesn't really belong in R&S unless we want to limit ourselves to discussion of religious or spiritual diagnoses / solutions to social problems at which point we are just back to arguing about dogma (or lack thereof) anyway.
this thread does belong in religion and spirituality
and i appreciate that someone is seeking to have it be a civil, respectful discussion, without name calling, attacking, belittling another's point of view
that is the social issue that i would like to see addressed in our own City Data Forum world. i would like to see people speak from "this works for me" and "this is how i handle or address this concern" without attacking another person's point of view and calling them names
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-17-2016 at 12:23 PM..
I'll say this much: the belief that "this world" is just a miserable "veil of tears" to ignore (in favor of that Pie In The Sky When You Die) guarantees that the world will never improve. Thankfully, a growing number of people are rejecting that, and trying to make the world better, in their own small way.
If we want a country or world that is not only tolerant but acceptant of other faiths and lifestyles, we need to start by being the same.
And I should be tolerant and accepting, because why, exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty
And in terms of war, one thing that can easily be done is to stop intervening in foreign affairs so much. We don't need a military presence in the Middle East. It's unjust and not helping anyone.
You need a military presence, if you want to maintain your Life-Style and Standard-of-Living.
You need control of the oil supply and the supply of precious metals and non-metallic minerals.
You don't need to control them to consume them, but you do need to control them to ensure they are sold on the global/world market in US Dollars.
You can end the wars only if you --- if the vast overwhelming majority of Americans --- are willing to accept a lesser Standard of Living and Life-Style.
this thread does belong in religion and spirituality
and i appreciate that someone is seeking to have it be a civil, respectful discussion, without name calling, attacking, belittling another's point of view
that is the social issue that i would like to see addressed in our own City Data Forum world. i would like to see people speak from "this works for me" and "this is how i handle or address this concern" without attacking another person's point of view and calling them names
I see very little "name calling" here and if it actually happened the mods would be shutting down threads and/or penalizing users. In all honesty the moderation on C-D is stricter than most such discussion forums I've participated in, to boot.
This is name calling: "Liar!"
This is a belittling attack: "You're stupid!"
This is NOT name calling or belittling or attacking: "I hold an opinion different from yours and here are the reasons why." In fact this is the whole POINT of this forum, at least I suspect it is for most of us.
In my view the OP is characterizing existing discussions as "belief wars" because his beliefs are not uncritically accepted, deferred to, and approved of by one and all. The only place where that ever happens here is the "who will sit with me in the sacred circle" thread and you will notice in reading through that, that nothing substantive gets discussed, either. There's a place for such a "safe haven" thread where you can "hang out" and feel the love in the room, but if every thread topic were like that it would just be a great big mutual admiration society. Some churches are like that, and again, don't get me wrong, there's a place for it. Every Saturday I play no-stakes Rummy with three other guys at the senior citizen's center here and that is the tacit understanding there as well. We will never challenge each other or learn much of substance from each other that way though. Exchanging and explaining and, yes, defending beliefs and opinions is stimulating and educational. Solving "social issues" requires understanding and compromise and that requires give and take. I like my Saturday morning card game and I like the "sacred circle" thread but I wouldn't want more than about 10% of my life to be like that.
Just my $0.02.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding and the OP isn't looking for a comfortable innocuous discussion to pass the time, but that's what it sounds like to me.
I look forward to seeing how substantial social issues can be profitably discussed without a single challenged notion or ruffled feather. I'll let you guys start off because frankly I have no idea at all how to discuss something without the risk of making or being made uncomfortable. That's how progress is made.
I see very little "name calling" here and if it actually happened the mods would be shutting down threads and/or penalizing users. In all honesty the moderation on C-D is stricter than most such discussion forums I've participated in, to boot.
This is name calling: "Liar!"
This is a belittling attack: "You're stupid!"
This is NOT name calling or belittling or attacking: "I hold an opinion different from yours and here are the reasons why." In fact this is the whole POINT of this forum, at least I suspect it is for most of us.
In my view the OP is characterizing existing discussions as "belief wars" because his beliefs are not uncritically accepted, deferred to, and approved of by one and all. The only place where that ever happens here is the "who will sit with me in the sacred circle" thread and you will notice in reading through that, that nothing substantive gets discussed, either. There's a place for such a "safe haven" thread where you can "hang out" and feel the love in the room, but if every thread topic were like that it would just be a great big mutual admiration society. Some churches are like that, and again, don't get me wrong, there's a place for it. Every Saturday I play no-stakes Rummy with three other guys at the senior citizen's center here and that is the tacit understanding there as well. We will never challenge each other or learn much of substance from each other that way though. Exchanging and explaining and, yes, defending beliefs and opinions is stimulating and educational. Solving "social issues" requires understanding and compromise and that requires give and take. I like my Saturday morning card game and I like the "sacred circle" thread but I wouldn't want more than about 10% of my life to be like that.
Just my $0.02.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding and the OP isn't looking for a comfortable innocuous discussion to pass the time, but that's what it sounds like to me.
I look forward to seeing how substantial social issues can be profitably discussed without a single challenged notion or ruffled feather. I'll let you guys start off because frankly I have no idea at all how to discuss something without the risk of making or being made uncomfortable. That's how progress is made.
You may well be right. We simply don't know. I had another thought about his motivation.
I wonder if what he really wants is to discuss politics and current events with the R&S/A&A regulars. In that case it would be because he respects the thought processes of enough of us. These topics are readily available in the politics and current events forums, so it isn't a lack of a place to discuss them.
Frankly, I too might enjoy this, however I am skeptical of it happening without degenerating into a mess. Because we are generally a civil bunch, it is within the realm of reason. Perhaps a "Chat About Politics" thread is what he's trying to suggest. But there is no way anyone can discuss a politics without including religion. By saying there would be no dogma, he may mean that we leave out discussing personal religious beliefs and lack thereof.
I agree that it can be fine to have parts of one's life that avoid the intellectual engagement that comes with controversial topics. Like you I limit the amount my time spent that way.
And I should be tolerant and accepting, because why, exactly?
You need a military presence, if you want to maintain your Life-Style and Standard-of-Living.
You need control of the oil supply and the supply of precious metals and non-metallic minerals.
You don't need to control them to consume them, but you do need to control them to ensure they are sold on the global/world market in US Dollars.
You can end the wars only if you --- if the vast overwhelming majority of Americans --- are willing to accept a lesser Standard of Living and Life-Style.
If any president says "We're fighting X war to preserve our standard of living" you'll see people rioting in the streets in protest. We'd see that president like a cartoon villain. We don't see our presidents that way because we don't associate war with our high standard of living.
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