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I don't hate gay people, or anyone else. The person that does so is wrong to do so. Please realize that.
Good. You are right, of course, and thanks for pointing this out. But sometimes actions speak louder than words or good intensions. I don't know you very well, so correct me if I get some of this wrong. I suspect you oppose gay marriage. I believe you when you say that you don't feel hatred for gays, but if someone were to feel hatred for gays, one way to express this hatred would be to fight tooth and nail to make sure that gays never got the right to marry. Someone who does not feel hatred for gays, but who is morally opposed to gay sex for religious reasons, might feel morally justified in posting a sign on their business door saying "No gays allowed." On the other hand, if someone did feel deep hatred for gays, one way they could express this hatred would be to post a sign on their door saying "No gays allowed."
When someone acts in ways that are virtually indistinguishable from the ways that they would act if they hated X, then it is not unreasonable for the public to view this public behavior in essentially the same light as if the person hated X. Feelings and intentions are important, but public expressions are important too, and the public expressions are the main thing that the public has to go on when figuring out how to deal with people who discriminate based on race, gender, sexuality, etc.
I think evangelicals who still believe that homosexual attractions are a choice with all the evidence we have today will likely never be able to be convinced otherwise. For them, that is as core to their faith as creationism and a literal Noah's flood. No matter how much science is presented that suggests otherwise, they will never believe it.
With that in mind, I think its futile to keep trying to convince them. Instead, the argument should be that even if it is a choice, in a free country with separation of church and state and that guarantees everyone the persuit of happiness, the LGBT community has every right to make that choice.
Good. You are right, of course, and thanks for pointing this out. But sometimes actions speak louder than words or good intensions. I don't know you very well, so correct me if I get some of this wrong. I suspect you oppose gay marriage. I believe you when you say that you don't feel hatred for gays, but if someone were to feel hatred for gays, one way to express this hatred would be to fight tooth and nail to make sure that gays never got the right to marry. Someone who does not feel hatred for gays, but who is morally opposed to gay sex for religious reasons, might feel morally justified in posting a sign on their business door saying "No gays allowed." On the other hand, if someone did feel deep hatred for gays, one way they could express this hatred would be to post a sign on their door saying "No gays allowed."
When someone acts in ways that are virtually indistinguishable from the ways that they would act if they hated X, then it is not unreasonable for the public to view this public behavior in essentially the same light as if the person hated X. Feelings and intentions are important, but public expressions are important too, and the public expressions are the main thing that the public has to go on when figuring out how to deal with people who discriminate based on race, gender, sexuality, etc.
I've never suggested that we should oppose same sex marriage because the bible says homosexuality is wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say that before people realize that.
...I think its futile to keep trying to convince them. Instead, the argument should be that even if it is a choice, in a free country with separation of church and state and that guarantees everyone the persuit of happiness, the LGBT community has every right to make that choice.
Well said, and I completely agree. It doesn't matter if sexual preference is a choice, or not, or if Christians view it as a "mere lifestyle" or not; what matters is that people should have the right to make these choices.
Well said, and I completely agree. It doesn't matter if sexual preference is a choice, or not, or if Christians view it as a "mere lifestyle" or not; what matters is that people should have the right to make these choices.
I've never said otherwise.
But choosing to be gay has nothing to do with same sex marriage. One can choose to have sex with whomever one wants, but don't tell me that I have to change the definition of marriage to suit a vocal minority.
I've never suggested that we should oppose same sex marriage because the bible says homosexuality is wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say that before people realize that.
Sorry. My bad. I have not read enough of your posts to know your views on this. You just seemed like someone who would oppose gay marriage. Thanks for correcting me. Luckily, I think my central point still stands, even if it is not directly relevant to you.
Edit: Oh, I see:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
But choosing to be gay has nothing to do with same sex marriage. One can choose to have sex with whomever one wants, but don't tell me that I have to change the definition of marriage to suit a vocal minority.
You are free to stick with your old definition, and I am free to accept a new definition. I'm just glad that the majority of society is finally changing their definition to something closer to mine.
Sorry. My bad. I have not read enough of your posts to know your views on this. You just seemed like someone who would oppose gay marriage. Thanks for correcting me. Luckily, I think my central point still stands, even if it is not directly relevant to you.
Edit: Oh, I see:
You are free to stick with your old definition, and I am free to accept a new definition. I'm just glad that the majority of society is finally changing their definition to something closer to mine.
No--I'm not basing my opposition to same sex marriage on the Bible. But it's not a good decision to change marriage on the whim of a few. I really think it sets a very dangerous precedent, legally, and civically--for our society.
First of all, I never chose to become a Christian--God called me. I didn't choose him.
Second....religion because the founding fathers guaranteed me the freedom to have my religion. They decided it was that important. It's a bedrock point of our country, of our culture. It's who we are. We have the freedom to practice our religion. If you don't want that, I hear Canada is a lovely country to live in.
Yup. It's pretty. Lots of mountains.
Keep sendin 'em our way, Viz! Diversity makes a better country.
Keep sendin 'em our way, Viz! Diversity makes a better country.
We also like diversity...but the basic rules of America are that we have a Constitution--and certain rights guaranteed. If people aren't willing to adhere to our basic rulebook, they aren't welcome.
Second....religion because the founding fathers guaranteed me the freedom to have my religion. They decided it was that important. It's a bedrock point of our country, of our culture. It's who we are. We have the freedom to practice our religion. If you don't want that, I hear Canada is a lovely country to live in.
How have you lost your freedom of religion because gay people can get married? You can still believe the way you believe, go to church freely, and define marriage your way in your church. The only thing that is changed is people who don't believe the way you do no longer have to abide by your rules, which is what true religious freedom is.
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