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The tactical wriggling of Christianity when some member is caught out in something bad is amusing. Can they get away with playing the repentance card with the martyr backup? Or should they declare him a No real Christian? Not if the hope is to wait for the fuss to die down and let the bastard crawl back into God's favour.
I'm not sure what Bible you've read, but hardly anyone supports the idea that you need god to be moral. What Christianity says is that we are all bad and act immoral to one degree or another, and thus we all need a savior to stand in the gap between us and perfection. Christianity also teaches that it is very wrong to knowingly sin with the idea that you can simply ask forgiveness later, certainly more wrong than not knowing you're doing something bad.
You might say that you know Christians that act that way, etc, but Christians don't define Christianity any more than Muslims define Islam. Just as Islam is defined by Muhammad (Hadith & Sira) and Allah (Qu'ran), Christianity is defined by Jesus (NT) and Yawah (OT).
Skip the middle man, and go right to the source. If you want to know what the Lord of the Rings is about, don't rely on someone telling you, read it for yourself.
we all need a savior to stand in the gap between us and perfection.
Indeed, and I can not stress enough just what a powerful and manipulative psychological tool the founders of such religions have hit upon there.
Holding people to a standard of perfection they can never actually attain, let alone maintain, but then telling them that despite their failings there is an all perfect father who loves them anyway.
On a psychological level this sets up what is essentially an emotional form of Stockholm syndrome. You are captive to a standard you can not escape but you learn to love your captor and even believe the captor loves you.
In fact the more one studies and learns about psychology, and then turns the eye of that knowledge to religion.... the more one appreciates the sheer depth and wonder of just how powerfully religion has evolved to exploit the human psyche.
And not always is this deliberate or intentional I expect. Quite often it has come about merely by a form of memetic evolution by natural selection. The kind of religious ideas and narrative that convert more people and get more people to perpetuate them.... survive and evolve further and the rest die off.
It is genuinely quite fascinating.... even while being depressing that a whole species can be manipulated and exploited that easily. I remember just how heart breaking it was to watch the documentry "Debroah 13" which followed the life of a home schooled evangelical christian teen girl. And at one point in the show she broke down in absolute tears at her own self disgust, and her sheer unending gratitude that despite all her self conceived failings.... Jesus loved her anyway.
While those of us like myself OUTSIDE the cultish effects of her psychological manipulation saw her exactly the opposite way. A girl who tragically could not see her own way above average inner and outer beauty due to being held slave to the notion of a standard she could never, and will never, attain. It was the emotional abuse of a minor we were witnessing on an abhorrent and tragic scale. That one so beautiful, in most senses of the word, could hate herself that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacierx
Skip the middle man, and go right to the source. If you want to know what the Lord of the Rings is about, don't rely on someone telling you, read it for yourself.
Indeed. It depresses me how few "Christians" have read the Bible or even, lets face it, own one. You would think that belief that it is the most important book that has ever, or will ever, exist... would compel people to actually own and read a copy.
Yet when I show the Bible to Christians quite often they are shocked at it's size. Because not only have the never read or owned one.... they have been fed the same cherry picked passages from it over and over for so long.... they thought they had heard all of it.
So when they see how much more of it there actually is, quite often they are genuinely shocked.
In the bible it is the devil that holds people to a standard of perfection they can never actually attain.
Just look at Job.
It is from the devil that we need saved
Skip the middle man, and go right to the source. If you want to know what the Lord of the Rings is about, don't rely on someone telling you, read it for yourself.
American Gangster ftw?
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa
In the bible it is the devil that holds people to a standard of perfection they can never actually attain.
Just look at Job.
It is from the devil that we need saved
I seem to remember God killing millions and millions and the devil killed like 9 people or so?
I don't believe in Noam Chomsky reasoning, which is to say ISIS is not as bad as the USA because they have killed fewer people (or that Nazi Germany was not as bad as the US and the UK because they killed fewer people). As Sam Harris says, "intentions matter." I'm not arguing against the atheist who say that the Devil is nicer than God, I'm only saying that you can't come to that conclusion through body count.
I'm not sure what Bible you've read, but hardly anyone supports the idea that you need god to be moral. What Christianity says is that we are all bad and act immoral to one degree or another, and thus we all need a savior to stand in the gap between us and perfection. Christianity also teaches that it is very wrong to knowingly sin with the idea that you can simply ask forgiveness later, certainly more wrong than not knowing you're doing something bad.
You might say that you know Christians that act that way, etc, but Christians don't define Christianity any more than Muslims define Islam. Just as Islam is defined by Muhammad (Hadith & Sira) and Allah (Qu'ran), Christianity is defined by Jesus (NT) and Yawah (OT).
Skip the middle man, and go right to the source. If you want to know what the Lord of the Rings is about, don't rely on someone telling you, read it for yourself.
That's a pretty good post, but a cornerstone of how Christian apologetics works is to argue that without God's rules and instructions, there is no workable morality and probably no morality at all. The Commandments as revised by Jesus are the basis for this. We get innumerable posts and threads arguing this point with us. If you want to argue that the Bible does not support the idea that you need God to be moral, be my guest. Atheism has been arguing for this idea for years.
That's a pretty good post, but a cornerstone of how Christian apologetics works is to argue that without God's rules and instructions, there is no workable morality and probably no morality at all. The Commandments as revised by Jesus are the basis for this. We get innumerable posts and threads arguing this point with us. If you want to argue that the Bible does not support the idea that you need God to be moral, be my guest. Atheism has been arguing for this idea for years.
Certainly there is the argument out there that atheism leads to hedonism, but I think that's not quite a biblically based argument. It's a philosophical argument found throughout the world irrespective of religion. Certainly there are many examples in the Bible which state things like "he was a just man" in reference to people who were not Jews or Christians or followers of Yahweh.
The central doctrine of Christianity is that "all have fallen short of the glory of God," so all are invited to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, which should be manifest in deeds: " to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God."
Indeed. It depresses me how few "Christians" have read the Bible or even, lets face it, own one. You would think that belief that it is the most important book that has ever, or will ever, exist... would compel people to actually own and read a copy.
Yet when I show the Bible to Christians quite often they are shocked at it's size. Because not only have the never read or owned one.... they have been fed the same cherry picked passages from it over and over for so long.... they thought they had heard all of it.
So when they see how much more of it there actually is, quite often they are genuinely shocked.
I frankly doubt that this is typically the case in the Bible Belt here in the US, and in many areas outside it. Many people have a hand-me-down heirloom family Bible, often printed on parchment to make it quite enormous, with a pull-out family tree in the front. That was probably in vogue two or three generations ago but is still not uncommon to see it.
That said I think that while people here are generally less Biblically illiterate than to not know that the Bible is quite large relative to a few memorized passages, most have never read it through or studied it systematically. I wish more would; if they did, they would come to disbelieve it more quickly.
That's a pretty good post, but a cornerstone of how Christian apologetics works is to argue that without God's rules and instructions, there is no workable morality and probably no morality at all. The Commandments as revised by Jesus are the basis for this. We get innumerable posts and threads arguing this point with us. If you want to argue that the Bible does not support the idea that you need God to be moral, be my guest. Atheism has been arguing for this idea for years.
apologetic belief statements is the only rational stance with what we know. Yes, they can use commonsense to form a belief. I heard many believers say you don't need to believe in god to be moral. And yes atheist do too. Yes, people that don't believe in magic said you don't need magic to be a good person. both groups have rational people that have beliefs.
that's great, yet another area where rational people can be rational. Even though your group had the first look at the real truth.
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