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In case you hadn't noticed, wallflash, a lot of Christians think they have the right to condemn their fellow Christians as well as non-Christians. Condemning someone else is what seems to make life worth living for some people.
In case you hadn't noticed, wallflash, a lot of Christians think they have the right to condemn their fellow Christians as well as non-Christians. Condemning someone else is what seems to make life worth living for some people.
Didn't you just do that by making this statement?
Didn't your church's founder outright condemn all the Christian churches when he started the LDS church? It's ok to debate and discuss. We are all adults. But you should be willing to receive criticism if you're going to be on the other end.
I agree. Yes, some Christians do get obnoxious. For that, I apologize. I would never walk up and accost someone, nor would I hold a "God hates --------" sign at a funeral, as the Westboro "Babtist" inbreeds do.
I don't. I have never accosted a liberal Christian and told them they're going to hell. If I see a posting on an internet message board I disagree with, I will give my input.
And I appreciate the fact that you see this extremism as wrong . I really do. You seem like the more sensible stripe of the fundamentalists here in many ways.
But the issue here is not just the extreme behavior , but the need to dwell on what you consider sins by non believers . You think homosexuality is wrong . OK , fine . But many Muslims think eating pork, not praying to Mecca 5 times a day , and women not wearing hijabs is sinful. You don't agree with that , and feel no need to care about their religious views , and very likely would not want a Muslim continually pointing out this "sinful" behavior to you and your family .
Others do not care for you doing the same to them . It doesn't have to be threatening them with hell , or violent extremism . I'm talking about the day to day stuff of how Christians interact with non Christians or non conservative Christians , and choose to point out and condemn the behaviors that their brand of Christianity regards as sinful .
In my time as a Southern Baptist, over 20 years as an adult , my take when others got on this topic of the sinfulness of our society , was that I would concern myself first with my own sins and of my family . If I felt we had those under control , I would move on to helping others under my charge, like my Sunday School classes , or close Christian friends that had agreed to try and follow the same lifestyle as me . I would consider worrying about the sins of those not of my faith only if I felt like I and my fellow church members behavior were beyond reproach .
Somehow I never had to face the issue of becoming so sinless as to need to expand my concern even to my Sunday School students .
And I appreciate the fact that you see this extremism as wrong . I really do. You seem like the more sensible stripe of the fundamentalists here in many ways.
But the issue here is not just the extreme behavior , but the need to dwell on what you consider sins by non believers . You think homosexuality is wrong . OK , fine . But many Muslims think eating pork, not praying to Mecca 5 times a day , and women not wearing hijabs is sinful. You don't agree with that , and feel no need to care about their religious views , and very likely would not want a Muslim continually pointing out this "sinful" behavior to you and your family .
Others do not care for you doing the same to them . It doesn't have to be threatening them with hell , or violent extremism . I'm talking about the day to day stuff of how Christians interact with non Christians or non conservative Christians , and choose to point out and condemn the behaviors that their brand of Christianity regards as sinful .
I'm ok with someone telling me I'm a sinner. I'm adult enough to take it. Just like I'm adult enough for you to now tell me I'm wrong. I am not going to break down and cry as a result.
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In my time as a Southern Baptist, over 20 years as an adult , my take when others got on this topic of the sinfulness of our society , was that I would concern myself first with my own sins and of my family . If I felt we had those under control , I would move on to helping others under my charge, like my Sunday School classes , or close Christian friends that had agreed to try and follow the same lifestyle as me . I would consider worrying about the sins of those not of my faith only if I felt like I and my fellow church members behavior were beyond reproach .
Somehow I never had to face the issue of becoming so sinless as to need to expand my concern even to my Sunday School students .
I don't evangelize because I think I am sinless or have it figured out. Nor would I engage in a discussion with someone about the sinful nature of any behavior because I think I am sinless. It's about truth. if someone is going to make a statement about God, I believe that I need to defend the faith if it's wrong. That does not include mean-spirited insults.
I'm ok with someone telling me I'm a sinner. I'm adult enough to take it. Just like I'm adult enough for you to now tell me I'm wrong. I am not going to break down and cry as a result.
And this is not the point . Non Christians are not crybabies because they don't like Christians haranguing them , anymore than you would not like Muslims constantly calling your family sinners because they refused to follow the rules of Islam . And it seems you have a need to take subtle jabs even in a discussion I am trying to remain civil in, even to the point I reprimanded a liberal for going after you in this thread . People that don't agree to follow your faith feel no need to live according to your rules . It's that simple . Why can't you understand that ?
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I don't evangelize because I think I am sinless or have it figured out. Nor would I engage in a discussion with someone about the sinful nature of any behavior because I think I am sinless. It's about truth. if someone is going to make a statement about God, I believe that I need to defend the faith if it's wrong. That does not include mean-spirited insults.
Evangelizing about Christ and pointing out how people are sinners because they don't follow your rules are two different things . And discussing theology about God and the requisite moral beliefs is an entirely different animal than coming into non theological discussions with statements about how gays are destroying America, gays just hate God , atheists disbelieve so they can continue to sin without guilt , etc, etc .
Your religious rules are yours . Muslims religious rules are theirs . Buddhists religious rules are theirs. If you want your right to not be harassed by Muslims and Buddhists because you don't follow their rules , you should understand that your rules don't apply to those who aren't your brand of Christian . If they are breaking Gods law then God will deal with them . That was always my response when I wouldn't get on the Baptist hate wagon for gays . If God is unhappy with them, he is more than capable of dealing with them . I am not called to hate or chastise them, but to love them . And since they don't follow my faith, I am not required to point out their moral failings according to my faith .
Somehow that was not an acceptable stance , but I still believe it nonetheless . Jesus said worry about the plank in your own eye before concerning yourself with the splinter in another's eye . And from what I remember the Bible never teaches being VOCALLY and publicly judgemental of non Christians, but only worrying about the behavior of other Christians. If Christians worried about cleaning their own house before concerning themselves with the outside world, they would be completely silent regarding the sins or no of the secular world . They simply wouldn't have the time .
Actually...it's by faith in Jesus. That's it. Of course, as a result, it is expected that we grow in Christ and we do become conformed over time to God's standards of holiness.
Well, this kind of goes without saying that in the Christian faith you can't be a good Christian and not have faith in Jesus. I think Judaism is the only major religion that says the non-Jews have the same chances to go to heaven as "proper" Jews (of course the concept of "heaven" is somewhat different, and it's actually easier for the Gentiles to get the passing grade since they don't have to abide by the six-hundred-odd rules).
However dealing with the Catholic side of my family I got an impression that true repentance, acceptance of one's sins, praying for forgiveness etc. was a requirement. I don't really know that much about both religions since my family was pretty much theistic agnostics.
And this is not the point . Non Christians are not crybabies because they don't like Christians haranguing them , anymore than you would not like Muslims constantly calling your family sinners because they refused to follow the rules of Islam . And it seems you have a need to take subtle jabs even in a discussion I am trying to remain civil in, even to the point I reprimanded a liberal for going after you in this thread . People that don't agree to follow your faith feel no need to live according to your rules . It's that simple . Why can't you understand that ?
The point is that we do deal with people harassing us over our faith. This board is full of people trolling every day to insult Christians. We deal with it, and move on.
And no--I do not expect anyone else to follow my religion's rules.
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Evangelizing about Christ and pointing out how people are sinners because they don't follow your rules are two different things . And discussing theology about God and the requisite moral beliefs is an entirely different animal than coming into non theological discussions with statements about how gays are destroying America, gays just hate God , atheists disbelieve so they can continue to sin without guilt , etc, etc .
I'm glad you see that difference.
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Your religious rules are yours . Muslims religious rules are theirs . Buddhists religious rules are theirs. If you want your right to not be harassed by Muslims and Buddhists because you don't follow their rules , you should understand that your rules don't apply to those who aren't your brand of Christian . If they are breaking Gods law then God will deal with them . That was always my response when I wouldn't get on the Baptist hate wagon for gays . If God is unhappy with them, he is more than capable of dealing with them . I am not called to hate or chastise them, but to love them . And since they don't follow my faith, I am not required to point out their moral failings according to my faith .
Somehow that was not an acceptable stance , but I still believe it nonetheless . Jesus said worry about the plank in your own eye before concerning yourself with the splinter in another's eye . And from what I remember the Bible never teaches being VOCALLY and publicly judgemental of non Christians, but only worrying about the behavior of other Christians. If Christians worried about cleaning their own house before concerning themselves with the outside world, they would be completely silent regarding the sins or no of the secular world . They simply wouldn't have the time .
I don't see why we're discussing this anymore. I think we're basically in agreement here.
However dealing with the Catholic side of my family I got an impression that true repentance, acceptance of one's sins, praying for forgiveness etc. was a requirement. I don't really know that much about both religions since my family was pretty much theistic agnostics.
Actually, yes. According to Roman Catholicism, they need priestly absolution of sins--which involves confession to the priest, going to Mass, etc. I'm sorry--I should have realized that was what you were talking about. I do have some theological differences with the Catholic Church in regards to salvation.
I get that. Believe it or not, I'm different from what you see online. What I post on these boards are frequently in response to people attacking Christianity. I defend Christianity. People don't like being told they're wrong--even when they're attacking others and telling them they're wrong.
You do realize that in the book of Acts, the early Christians actually did go door to door and proclaim the Gospel in the marketplace, right? We are not simply to wait for people to come to us.
Heck, even now, you're telling ME how to do things. By your logic, you wouldn't be doing that if you really believed what you said.
No...I'm making a suggestion as one Christian to another, lol. But fair enough. Yes, the early Christians did do that. It was a new concept, the idea that reconciliation to a God of Love was available to anyone. However, we are not in that era. There isn't anyone walking around in the United States who hasn't heard of Christianity. They might not know what it means to you or what it could mean to them, but they know there's a religion called Christianity, and many of them have had very negative experiences with what they know as Christianity.
I worked in NYC for more than 30 years. I've seen people on the street bleating about repenting, the end is near, or reciting scripture on the trains or holding come-to-Jesus signs on the corner. I've never ever heard of ONE person finding their way to Christ through such a tactic. It's the actions, not the words, that bring people in. People will be attracted if they are searching and see Christ in us.
Preach the gospel and if necessary, use words, said Francis of Assisi. Yes, in some cases you do wait for people to come to you, and I don't mean by sitting in your house or even your church, and I know you don't mean that either. But by praying and asking for what you should do at the start of a day, for example, and to whom, if anyone, you should speak that day and then letting it happen, isn't that the way it's supposed to work? Not taking it upon yourself to go out and form a plan of attack against "THEM".
However, if we pre-emptively discourage people by listing all the things they "shouldn't" be, no one will ever be attracted to the faith, and rightly so, because it's wrong and against the faith in the first place to do that.
The point is that we do deal with people harassing us over our faith. This board is full of people trolling every day to insult Christians. We deal with it, and move on.
And no--I do not expect anyone else to follow my religion's rules.
I'm glad you see that difference.
I don't see why we're discussing this anymore. I think we're basically in agreement here.
If we are in agreement then great . My points are directed at those who have proclaimed for themselves the right to declare others actions as sinful because they don't follow their sects rules, and sit in judgement of non Christians for not following Christian rules . Jeff, for example, declared for himself on the Orlando thread the right to label homosexuality a perversion of Gods will and a sin, and said something to the effect of not having to remain silent because sinners didn't like him declaring it a sin. While I acknowledge his right to point out sin to another Christian who has agreed to live by the Christian rules , his proclamation that he has the right to pronounce and denounce sin among those who don't follow his faith is what this thread is about .
I presume I won't be seeing any posts from you declaring homosexuality a sin for non Christians .
Bear in mind I am not referring to discussion between conservative Christians about Christian sinners in their churches , or even discussions between conservative and liberal Christians about whether something is a sin according to Christianity , but only in reference to non Christians who are not bound by the belief system of conservative Christianity
Last edited by wallflash; 06-18-2016 at 12:18 PM..
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