Why I Lost My Christian Faith (Adam and Eve, Neanderthal, Kingdom, American)
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Perhaps you missed my explanation of the origin of my adoption of the Christ narrative, Thrill. My encounter in deep meditation was unmistakable. The unconditional love, acceptance, joy, and Oneness of the consciousness I encountered eliminated my atheism instantly. My decades-long efforts to understand and explain to my intellect involved searching science and searching the spiritual fossil record (ancient writings speculating about God). The descriptions revealed in the Jesus narrative about the nature of God as Agape love exactly matched the consciousness I encountered. That combined with my Synthesis of the science that provided plausible hypotheses for what I encountered led to my adoption of the Savior template that is ubiquitous throughout the spiritual fossil record. It had nothing to do with the things in the current narrative that you object to which are based on the misconceptions, unsupported premises about God, and expectations about God's participation in human affairs. My experiences drive my certainty and acceptance of the Savior narrative as demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus in the Bible as the most sophisticated and reasonable (as reinterpreted by me,)
No one has given up on you, Thrill, least of all God or Jesus. But you have cut yourself off from them by your change from unrealistic expectations to NO expectations at all. You say you do not pray or meditate so how do you expect to ever receive ANY sign from God or Jesus? You seem to be operating on the mistaken notion that what God wants from us is belief, but belief only provides the motive to BECOME a loving human being. God wants us to become loving human beings and reproduce (grow) His consciousness (what we call our growing or expanding universe). WHY we become a loving human being is not as important as whether or not we DO become a loving human being. Of course, there are certain motives that corrupt the desired outcome, such as fear of Hell, or obedience for obedience sake or for reward, or to avoid punishment, etc. But in the final analysis, what matters is whether or not we are truly loving human beings whose consciousness resonates (however imperfectly) with Christ's perfect Agape love (Grace).
To specifically answer your question about indisputable evidence, if there were such, your actual state of mind would NOT necessarily reflect what you had become because it would be driven by absolute knowledge. It is only because we do NOT know that our faith reveals what we have actually become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Let me pose the Gordian puzzle to you:
If Jesus was the Son of God, then God would have left indisputable evidence of Jesus. Do you agree with this premise?
If Jesus was NOT the son of God, then God would NOT have left indisputable evidence of Jesus. Do you agree with this premise?
For me, it's that black and white. There's no other way to analyze the facts and come to any other conclusion.
To your best way of thinking, Mighty Queen, can you explain why Jesus is the Son of God but God would NOT have left indisputable evidence of that fact if He really wanted us to believe in Jesus?
This one really has me stumped and all the Christians refuse to get near it.
Mystic refuses to confront this question, frankly because I don't think he knows how to answer it, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Mystic DID answer you but you must have missed it. See bold in my post above. It is NOT black and white. As long as you have the wrong ideas about what God wants from us you will make wrong conclusions.
No, actually, I think he decided that because there was no Jesus, God doesn't give a crap about people. Sorry, my bad for misrepresenting his beliefs. It was unintentional. In my mind, a deist God is the functional equivalent of a non-existent God.
lol, true. Its a big cold universe when you come to the realization it just doesn't give a crayola about me.
But then I realized. My mom, my wife, my kids do. well sort of. That means some volumes of the universe do care. Anybody that fights against that notion just don't now what they don't know. The real question is how much? I like to keep that question to a manageable size. Thats why i stay withing 40 au's.
then, how do I feel about the life that makes me up? I hope my skin cells die and fall off. So a group of skin cells would say "Hey, that that thing hopes we die and fall off. Its evil." well yeah, I do and I am not. My very life depends on them dying and falling off.
I want so back back in the fish bowl pleroo. It was just easy ranting against theist without having to find out what was actually going on.
But you are laissez-faire with all this, Pleroo. None of the Christians' shenanigans irk you like they do me. Christians tell lies to win people over to their religion. They have been for the last 2000 years. I am trying to stop greenhorns from falling into their honey-trap by telling people Jesus loves them so much he died for them. Absolute bunk. I'm trying to save people from the Christian lies. That's all.
Not at all. But I’m an ex-Christian talking to an ex-Christian (you). You are talking to me like I’m still a Christian trying to defend Christianity when all I’m doing is pointing out what I’ve observed in your posts. Whatever conclusions you come to about God, the universe and everything is obviously fine. I don’t get upset with you about thinking God is absent even though I don’t. But since you can’t or won’t discuss beyond the fundamentalist (who are also black/white all or nothing) concept of God even with those who don’t hold that view, it makes me think you’re still stuck in a fundamentalist mindset. And I would like to see you reach your conclusions from a better, more rational place than fundamentalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I am approaching this entire conundrum from the point of view of how the Christians perceive their Christian God.
The Christians are adamant that their god is the right god and everyone else's is heretical. If you don't accept Jesus you go to hell. If you believe in any other god you automatically go to hell. That is problem no. 1 for me.
<snipped>
Yes, and you know that I (and Mystic and MQ) agree that that’s a problem with some who are Christians. And you know I’ll stand with you anytime you bring that to the attention of a Christian who is proclaiming it. But, you’re preaching to the choir. I don’t need to be convinced that the fundamentalist god does not exist. You keep asking those of us who don’t disagree with you about that to dispute you and convince you to believe again. Why would we do that?
Not at all. But I’m an ex-Christian talking to an ex-Christian (you). You are talking to me like I’m still a Christian trying to defend Christianity when all I’m doing is pointing out what I’ve observed in your posts.
Good gawd, does the list of atheists accused of being Christians/told they're "talking like theists"/etc. because they dare disagree with another atheist never end? Nice to meet you, Pleroo! Welcome to the club. I'm Vic, another alleged Christian spy
lol, true. Its a big cold universe when you come to the realization it just doesn't give a crayola about me.
But then I realized. My mom, my wife, my kids do. well sort of. That means some volumes of the universe do care. Anybody that fights against that notion just don't now what they don't know. The real question is how much? I like to keep that question to a manageable size. Thats why i stay withing 40 au's.
then, how do I feel about the life that makes me up? I hope my skin cells die and fall off. So a group of skin cells would say "Hey, that that thing hopes we die and fall off. Its evil." well yeah, I do and I am not. My very life depends on them dying and falling off.
I want so back back in the fish bowl pleroo. It was just easy ranting against theist without having to find out what was actually going on.
I don’t agree with your conclusion, Arach [spell check always wants to change your name to arachnid, which creeps me out ], although I understand why one might come to it. But I think you know that I believe your family is one of the ways it’s showing you it does care. Even more importantly, that you care about them.
Good gawd, does the list of atheists accused of being Christians/told they're "talking like theists"/etc. because they dare disagree with another atheist never end? Nice to meet you, Pleroo! Welcome to the club. I'm Vic, another alleged Christian spy
Hi Vic. I’m not an atheist, just an ex-Christian, but it’s still nice to meet you. Thrill isn’t accusing me of anything, he’s just stuck in a rut, imho.
I am approaching this entire conundrum from the point of view of how the Christians perceive their Christian God.
The Christians are adamant that their god is the right god and everyone else's is heretical. If you don't accept Jesus you go to hell. If you believe in any other god you automatically go to hell. That is problem no. 1 for me.
Their god, they claim, wants us to believe that Jesus is his son and that we must accept him or he will be forced by his justice to go against his love for us and condemn us to hell, but he left nothing that I can discern to prove to us he means business. That is problem no. 2 for me. MightyQueen, if you have a incorrigible dope-addicted child, don't you do everything in your power--spend every last dime you have to try to save this child from killing himself? Shouldn't we expect the Christian god to do even more for his children than the best parent out there? Why doesn't he???????
Where I am catching flack from everyone is their what-I-perceive-to-be-inability to rationally put two and two together: if God wants us to believe so desperately in his son because he doesn't want to condemn us to hell, then the ball is in his court to give us irrefutable, incontrovertible, indisputable evidence Jesus was who the gospels claim he was. But the Christian god left no such evidence for us. That is problem no. 3 for me, but it apparently is no problem for Christians. They don't care if their god left evidence or not. They're ready to blindly accept everything the Bible says about Jesus without a penny's worth of proof to establish a foundation for their beliefs. In other words, their entire faith is built on beach sand--ironically the exact thing Jesus warned people not to do in the last verses of the sermon on the mount.
My question: how are they able to just close their eyes and stick their heads in the sand like ostriches? In the final analysis, I couldn't care less what they do. It's their lives. But I would like the lurkers here who read but don't post to see exactly how rudderless the Christian faith is--a faith that has absolutely nothing to hold it up. A faith that has a god who doesn't give a damn about them when push comes to shove. That's my entire premise. It's why I left the faith. I couldn't believe in an impotent Christian god that was totally incapable of saving his children. In that respect he's no better than a derelict father. We lock up such fathers. They're unworthy of our love and respect.
OK, so you are addressing fundamentalists by using fundamentalist thinking. Within the framework of that mindset, your question makes sense.
But, I am curious. YOU were a fundamentalist until you no longer believed, as was Pleroo, as was L8. How were YOU able to just close your eyes and stick YOUR head in the sand like an ostrich?
I can give you my own answer. I was semi-fundie growing up in that I belonged to a church that taught that the Bible was literal; however, I had a practical, logical, engineer father who at home told us things such as that the creation wasn't literally in seven days, the entire world wasn't covered with water during the flood, etc., so we dared to question, at least in part. But I do remember when my mind wandered into the territory of wondering if something wasn't true, the ingrained fear raised its head and whispered that I shouldn't think such thoughts, I shouldn't ask such questions, or something bad might happen. God was just waiting to get me for such sinfulness.
It took to adulthood to be able to say, "Well, God/Jesus, you're supposed to love us, but I sure as heck see no evidence that you love ME" and ditch traditional Christianity.
So, that's probably the answer to how they can pretend. Fear.
So much talk about Fundies ...I have a question...do all Fundies believe the earth is 6000 years old?
I mean if you don't, than would you not be a Fundie...but
maybe a Charismatic or Evangelical or Pentecostal?
Thanks
So much talk about Fundies ...I have a question...do all Fundies believe the earth is 6000 years old?
I mean if you don't, than would you not be a Fundie...but
maybe a Charismatic or Evangelical or Pentecostal?
Thanks
Not all Fundamentalists adhere to the same things. In general, from my perspective, it's a broad umbrella but most Fundamentalists accept the inerrancy and infallibility of the bible, as well as the belief that, unless the bible itself indicates differently in certain instances, the stories in it should be taken literally. The other common denominator seems to be "substitutionary atonement" as a cornerstone doctrine (which includes the belief in a punishing God with eternal hell or annihilation as "His" punishment of choice).
Not all Fundamentalists adhere to the same things. In general, from my perspective, it's a broad umbrella but most Fundamentalists accept the inerrancy and infallibility of the bible, as well as the belief that, unless the bible itself indicates differently in certain instances, the stories in it should be taken literally. The other common denominator seems to be "substitutionary atonement" as a cornerstone doctrine (which includes the belief in a punishing God with eternal hell or annihilation as "His" punishment of choice).
Good, thanks. I hope others give their 2 cents.
Esp about the 6000yrs old thing..hahaha....would their be a fight if one Fundie said they didn't believe that? Hmm..
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], although I understand why one might come to it. But I think you know that I believe your family is one of the ways it’s showing you it does care. Even more importantly, that you care about them.
