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I had no idea that I was out to get you. Thanks for informing me how important you are in my daily existence.
I have to confer with the other guys before I can answer for the group. But I have never personally heard of such a thing.
Oh ... you are trying to conflate terms here. No, evolution just doesn't involve agency. Very different claim.
Who knows what you're talking about here?
Purpose requires agency. You or I can choose purposes for ourselves. The sun cannot. It can only serve a function, not choose a purpose.
Like a hammer you made chooses a purpose? It also can only serve a function same as the sun. Agency up the scheez.
They serve a function, at least if you are alive and driving your car.
And the sun serves a purpose as long as you are alive and kicking.
Yea, that's what I figured you would do.
This seems like a stupid argument to me.
Purpose also means: "The object for which anything is used." & "The object for which anything exists," like rubber trees for making tires, they have no purpose unless you give them one. Then they have a purpose. Bananas have no purpose, but you give them a purpose when you eat them. Banana doesn't have to choose or decide anything for it to have a purpose, you do. Always.
Purpose: 1. the object for which anything exists, or is done, or is made, or is used.
Agency -
1. a commercial or other bureau...
2. place of business...
3. U.S Indian Agency...
4. office of agent, business of agent...
5. state of being in action or operation...
6. a mode of exerting power or producing effects...
End of list.
"No, evolution just doesn't involve agency?" "Purpose requires agency."
Sounds like nonsense to me.
I don't know what agency has to do with any of this.
I don't know what agency has to do with any of this.
Most believers argue that the universe is purpose-built / designed and an intentional agent (such as god) is necessary for that. As far as I know you aren't an exception here. So agency has everything to do with it.
Purpose requires intent and intent requires agency.
Your argument that things must have a purpose is meaningless without a designer to provide the purpose. Because you assume a designer, you see purpose everywhere through the mechanism of confirmation bias, and the purpose you perceive also causes you to infer agency. Agency inference and confirmation bias are two of the biggest and best understood quirks in human thinking. You are fond of them; I do my best not to be influenced by them. Never the twain shall meet, I guess.
You have been conditioned to think that a universe without purpose imposed on it by god is sterile and desolate, that humanity has nothing and is nothing apart from what is graciously bestowed upon it by a divine zoo-keeper. In point of fact how sad or joyful a prospect that is, is entirely up to you and how you choose to regard it and respond to it. We are the actual intentional agents in the picture, and determine our own meaning and purpose, and that gives aspects of the universe utility and value and interest to us. That creates both opportunities and challenges, freedom as well as responsibilities. If your ideology teaches that this is scary and beyond us, and you have to cede it all to an asserted invisible intentional agent, that is fine. Knock yourself out. Contrary to what you suggested, it doesn't upset me and I don't need to "do anything about it". It's a free country. Just remember it's free for me too, and we'll get along fine.
Most believers argue...
Most believers can't even explain what it really is they believe in. What most believers believe has nothing to do with us.
Purpose requires intent and intent requires agency.
Your use of the word "Agency" obscures any meaning here.
Purpose requires intent = true. Intent requires a mind that can reason = agency?
Your argument that things must have a purpose is meaningless...
Wildassumptions. My argument is that in order for anything to have a purpose some "Mind" must be involved. A man builds a house for a purpose. Maybe to sell for profit or live in, and that is the purpose he built it. Say the man lives in the house, the man gives the house purpose = a roof over his head, shelter. The house has a purpose. To try and tell the man his house has no purpose is silly. But then the man dies and the house sits empty, the house no longer has a purpose. Then another man takes procession of the house and moves into it, once again the house has a purpose.
You have been conditioned to think that a universe without purpose imposed on it by god is sterile and desolate, that humanity has nothing and is nothing apart from what is graciously bestowed upon it by a divine zoo-keeper. In point of fact how sad or joyful a prospect that is, is entirely up to you and how you choose to regard it and respond to it. We are the actual intentional agents in the picture, and determine our own meaning and purpose, and that gives aspects of the universe utility and value and interest to us. That creates both opportunities and challenges, freedom as well as responsibilities. If your ideology teaches that this is scary and beyond us, and you have to cede it all to an asserted invisible intentional agent, that is fine. Knock yourself out. Contrary to what you suggested, it doesn't upset me and I don't need to "do anything about it". It's a free country. Just remember it's free for me too, and we'll get along fine.
That is nothing but another wildassumption that is based upon nothing I've said. Nothing but missed communication on your part. Everything you say here just bounced back to the beginning of your post: Most believers argue, is not me, nor my argument. And you were the one conditioned by your slap you down and give me money Jesus you mention in another thread that you accepted at the age of 5. Again, nothing you said here reflects upon anything I said. You think you are speaking for me but that nonsense ideology is generated and exists in yourself, not my mind. I don't see anything scary here at all, drop your bombs on each others heads, I could care less...the only thing I feel is the dread of mankind and your unchangeable nature of greed, stealing, and murder...a dread based upon man's own actions and desires to have his way no matter what the cost, even unto the destruction of the earth itself. And you are very near that point today with the capability to do it. That slap you down and give me money Jesus they created and you once accepted is the ideology mankind is serving, full of spite, war, and destruction. And if you knew the true message and ideology of Jesus you would not be having any part of this. You would turn your back to this lying system in charge and come out of this ideology of stupidity. And I came to this conclusion on my own, conditioned by my own thoughts and rendering of not accepting everything said in the scriptures but choosing a little here and a little there. And when the spider weaves its web, time after time, each spider weaving its own design, it is not happening by random circumstance or by spider teaching other spiders. And if your mind cannot conceive anything but random accident behind everything setting itself in perfect, working, and long lasting order by "Nothing," and mankind being the only important Agent? which did nothing to bring it all about, even itself, yet claiming to be the supreme Agent? of everything...it boggles my mind. And like the Book says, this supreme Agent? destroys itself and all creation, random or not, in the end, which seems to be happening right now before our very eyes. Do you really expect things to get better if we keep heading in this same direction? How long do you think we can keep this up before man causes his own destruction by his own desires and choices? So yes, I take note of my ideology, and note some different ideology from some different Jesus you accepted knowing nothing at all about him at age 5, and rejecting some point later. I rejected your ideology from the beginning. And I rejected all religious ideology very soon after I began reading the scriptures myself and doing my own thinking. And just like the religion you once accepted, and later rejected, you learned nothing from it and as far as I know "Accepted Atheism" at age ? in the same manner before, like it must be either Religion or Atheism because you had no other option to consider. Which would have been to forget everything you were taught and to spend some time reading, studying, and forming your own thoughts, which doesn't seem to have been an option you considered. It seems you accepted religion and then accepted Atheism, whereas I accepted nothing. I got my ideology by going to the source of it all, searching it out on my own. Most believers of either has nothing to do with me or what I say or think. I only speak for myself. And even if there is no God, the ideology of this imaginary God I discovered is head over heels superior the this ideology that has brought us to these days of endless wars and destruction. And no, you are dreaming, this is not a free country anymore. We have become slaves and our master has become the dollar, and we do what money requires us to do to get by. Try to live outside this new age slave master money and the SSS# = 666# required in your head, or your hand, if you need proof of it, and see how far you get. Just try it! Whoever heard of such a thing? It makes us easy pickings, and easy to control, for whatever some hidden masters decide to do with us if we get out of line. They can follow your trail, monitor your whereabouts, and snatch you up off the streets without you ever having a hint or knowing why it was done. And we are only at the beginning of this ideology that is moving fast.
Future looks good for the money masters and their financial trickery's insuring themselves eternal increasing profits while the dollars we need to survive, and if we try to save a little, the value dwindles before we can even spend it. What a future we have coming at us. Thanks to today's ideology with some hidden agenda and the purpose behind it all...great for those that are willing to claw their way to the top of the heap into the never ending revolving door from government to corporations and corporations to government, eternally recycling itself for the true fat and rich believers where everyone outside of it must bare the burden like the recent bailout of the greedy crooks and thieves of that ruling revolving door ideology that exists today. There is no God zookeeper, Men are the zookeepers, the God in my subconsciousness only makes suggestions, not decisions. And I must always decide for myself and pay for my own mistakes. That is the God I know. And the Jesus you hate, what is it he has decided and forced you do??? Never mind, I don't care to hear about your slap me down and give me money Jesus that you accepted and rejected and now hate.
And don't let the liars fool you, what we have today is not a Democracy at all, it is a Plutocracy; which bribes the politicians into passing the laws they design and write without even reading them. So lie to yourself if it helps.
Plutocracy -
1. The rule or power of wealth of the wealthy.
2. A government or state in which the wealthy class rules.
3. A class or group ruling, or exercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.
Rather pointless stuff about cosmic origins (which has never really been the Proof the religious would like) and what looks like unbalanced ranting about the people who are really running things. Well at least it isn't Jews, the Illuminati or alien greys controlling the government. He's identified the Golden Rule: "Whoever has the Gold, makes the Rules". But this sort of demented frothing makes me fear for his neighbours.
Most believers argue that the universe is purpose-built / designed and an intentional agent (such as god) is necessary for that. As far as I know you aren't an exception here. So agency has everything to do with it.
Purpose requires intent and intent requires agency.
Your argument that things must have a purpose is meaningless without a designer to provide the purpose. Because you assume a designer, you see purpose everywhere through the mechanism of confirmation bias, and the purpose you perceive also causes you to infer agency. Agency inference and confirmation bias are two of the biggest and best understood quirks in human thinking. You are fond of them; I do my best not to be influenced by them. Never the twain shall meet, I guess.
You have been conditioned to think that a universe without purpose imposed on it by god is sterile and desolate, that humanity has nothing and is nothing apart from what is graciously bestowed upon it by a divine zoo-keeper..
the converse claim is "there is absolutely no purpose". that's stupid too.
When discussing what a reasonable claim might be, we will then get quickly to "personal meaning and emotional needs. Then move onto an atheist agenda vs theist agenda, team unity, and colors. When we point out that many atheist are just spewing personal needs and emotional meaning ... we are placed on ignore. theist do it too
yeah, I know, you already did that to me , you lost in 3 seconds and ran. this aint for you
.
The most reasonable stance is that a grand purpose is unknown yet. We just have to keep learning before we make any real claims like. Apologetic stances are reasonable in that they adjust to new information and don't really try an fundy - milli - mental force a belief down a throat.
Once we have data based on observations and/or reasonable conclusions based those observations and they are intentionally ignored, or minimized, to put forth the fundy-mental atheist agenda (which is as different an agenda to atheism as fundy-mental theist is to run of the mill believer) we have just a regular ol' religion trying to displace another regular ol' religion.
Change can be good though. too bad the agents of change have to mislead and tell 1/2 truths to get the herd moving. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
So yes, I take note of my ideology, and note some different ideology from some different Jesus you accepted knowing nothing at all about him at age 5, and rejecting some point later. I rejected your ideology from the beginning.
...nipped for space.
I am dyslexic and those words really jumbled up on me there.
are you just saying that you do not follow the fundy-mental people that he tried and leave? He doesn't know, but he never left them so he relieves his angst by blaming a boogey man religion. Fundy-mental is a personality not a belief.
Are you saying that you follow a "Jesus" that is more of the love and compassion type? help everybody Jesus, no matter the belief?
That you are not going to force it on us or vote laws that are based on a belief based on magic like "walking on water" or "rising the dead" or the dreaded "god said so."?
Are you saying, that you would change and/or remove the magic if the observations suggest that 2000 years ago people just didn't know and we know a lot more today?
Do you think that the first thing that leaves with ignorance is the fear of religion. That's one lesson of the cross. We can, and do, still "fear" some people. But thats ok?
That slap you down and give me money Jesus they created and you once accepted is the ideology mankind is serving, full of spite, war, and destruction.
I hardly think so. It is an ideology that has captured a significant minority of Christians and has acquired some waning political power in places like the US. Hardly something you could credit with the covert operation of the whole world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And if you knew the true message and ideology of Jesus you would not be having any part of this.
There is no shortage of people claiming to know the "true message of Jesus"; you have no more standing than any of the others including what you call the "slap you down and give me money" message.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
... I came to this conclusion on my own, conditioned by my own thoughts and rendering of not accepting everything said in the scriptures but choosing a little here and a little there.
Which is what everyone who uses the scriptures does anyway. Some admit to it, like you, some pretend they accept it all. 100% of them presume the scriptures are more than what they actually are, which is a template for projecting one's theistic ideology of choice upon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And if your mind cannot conceive anything but random accident behind everything setting itself in perfect, working, and long lasting order by "Nothing," and mankind being the only important Agent? which did nothing to bring it all about, even itself, yet claiming to be the supreme Agent? of everything...it boggles my mind.
If it boggles your mind that is fine, you are welcome to avoid ideas you don't like to your heart's content.
My mind is perfectly capable of conceiving of a designed universe, as evidenced by the fact that I once had that belief. It is also capable of revising its belief based on the preponderance of evidence in the current dataset of evidence and logical argument.
I have never suggested that humanity is perfect or in no danger of self-destruction, or that a good part of that danger doesn't come from hubris. All I said is that it's the only actual intentional agent in the mix that I can see and am currently aware of. I see no evidence for an invisible personal intentional agent of any kind, and while other actors probably exist in the universe, we have yet to meet or detect them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And just like the religion you once accepted, and later rejected, you learned nothing from it and as far as I know "Accepted Atheism" at age ? in the same manner before, like it must be either Religion or Atheism because you had no other option to consider.
I spent significant time and effort looking at many other options. I'm well aware that there are many.
The division between "religion" and informal, personal belief is obvious and I looked at that, too. You are apparently way more impressed with the difference between widely accepted or organized theism, and personalized, eclectic theism than I ever was. Perhaps because you have diagnosed theism's problem as having to do with organized religion, rather than with its use of a fundamentally discredited and flawed epistemology which renders it devoid of explanatory or predictive power and untethered from reality -- whether organized or not.
So yes I did in fact "forget everything I was taught and spent some time reading, studying, forming my own thoughts." I just didn't arrive at the conclusions you did. I believe that I correctly identified religious faith (affording belief without a decent evidentiary or logical requirement to justify it) as the core problem. You fixated upon organized religion as the problem. Essentially what you ended up doing then was "doubling down" on the failed epistemology of religious faith, rather than rejecting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
Most believers of either has nothing to do with me or what I say or think. I only speak for myself.
Okay, I admit that I was unaware that you have gone your own esoteric way. It doesn't materially change my fundamental critique which is that you haven't substantiated anything you're asserting so that a person could afford belief to it. In that you are no different from any other theist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And even if there is no God, the ideology of this imaginary God I discovered is head over heels superior the this ideology that has brought us to these days of endless wars and destruction.
Humanity has always had wars. It has fewer of them today than at any time in history though. You might want to investigate what is actually behind that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And no, you are dreaming, this is not a free country anymore. We have become slaves and our master has become the dollar, and we do what money requires us to do to get by. Try to live outside this new age slave master money and the SSS# = 666# required in your head, or your hand, if you need proof of it, and see how far you get. Just try it! Whoever heard of such a thing? It makes us easy pickings, and easy to control, for whatever some hidden masters decide to do with us if we get out of line. They can follow your trail, monitor your whereabouts, and snatch you up off the streets without you ever having a hint or knowing why it was done. And we are only at the beginning of this ideology that is moving fast.
So have you dropped off the grid and put on your tinfoil hat yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
I don't care to hear about your slap me down and give me money Jesus that you accepted and rejected and now hate.
I do not hate any deity because I don't believe in any deity.
What I ultimately rejected was a failed epistemology. Once you have decent evidentiary standards and a sufficient grasp of logic, your belief about all deities changes as a matter of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack
And don't let the liars fool you, what we have today is not a Democracy at all, it is a Plutocracy; which bribes the politicians into passing the laws they design and write without even reading them. So lie to yourself if it helps.
Plutocracy -
1. The rule or power of wealth of the wealthy.
2. A government or state in which the wealthy class rules.
3. A class or group ruling, or exercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.
Oh, I actually agree that in large measure the US specifically and the West generally are a plutocracy, courtesy of unbridled capitalism being taken to its logical conclusion. But that is a political discussion for another forum and has little to do with religion per se.
I bought a paperback by back in the early 70’s by Allan Watts, I think, and a bit of it still lingers with me. “We are the universe looking back at itself,” is about the only thing I can quote, but his reasoning kinda blending with mine:
In the beginning, God was all alone, not much fun. So God created a place for him to exist with everything, and everything could exist with him. And when God created man, he hid himself in man. And man wonders, where is this God that created everything? And goes looking for him. So God left a few recorded holy words that would always be around like those holes in your jeans in case things ever got so bad and terrible that he needed a way out, a way to escape, he could find one. And really, everything we are doing to each other is really just God doing it to himself. So indeed! I do talk to my imaginary friend that sticks closer than any friend, and he speaks back. I know I can’t do it by myself. But if I’m God just talking to myself…maybe I should get up off my behind, both of us, we, and say something or do something…anything other that just sit and watch it all just slide off the globe.
So there: I was inspired by the word of Allan Watts and the word of God. At least I put something down. Now I at least have something I can work with. It’s not like I’m stuck with anything. How crazy is that? And, so what if you don’t like it? What you gonna do about it?
Humans are made up of exactly the same "stuff," matter, as the stars and the planets, comets and asteroids. We are very literally the universe contemplating itself. Does that make us Gods? We created the idea of Gods from our imagination, as something greater still. We can never attain the attributes and capabilities of things that we can imagine to be true. No matter how knowledgeable or technologically advanced we become, we can never become what we are capable of imaging.
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