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there was enough jesus' floating around to say that a man named Jesus lived, taught and died for teaching against literal religion.
only literalness need it to be true or false. the anti-god and fundy theist personality can't really grapple with third level thinking. If it feels good to them they are in. If not, its just not true for anybody.
all of that has nothing to do with died and rose for our sins being far less valid.
I have always given you more credit then this trans, seems I should not have.
Do you or do you not quote Josephus?
Do you agree with everything that Josephus is suppose to have written?
Paul quoted a roman poet do you suppose Paul believed everything that poet ever wrote.
And I did not try to discredit Josephus the Josephus and historical scholars did that but you would actually have to read the link to see that.
A poet is not a historian. And while I haven't run down all the correlations between Josephus and other historians and archaeological support (note his vindication over Masada, though) broadly and making allowances for tall tales, broadly the historical outline has not been considered unreliable, not even by you, when he is useful for you.
Otherwise you tried to argue that he was (quote) "all over the map" and you didn't like it at all when i explained that the two terms of Joazar made sense, given that the High priest was replaced when Archelaus left and restored when he got back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
No trans what I wrote in that link has not been debunked except in your own mind, which I notice you believe you win every debate.
Perhaps I do when the response is not to address the post but to dismiss it. You may not remember, but I do that the results of the long debate was to explain all the problems you raised while conceding that you made a good case for a 1BC eclipse being more memorable one than the 4 BC, show that the Judas revolt mentioned in Acts was identified with the tax of Qurinus which Josephus puts when the Romans took over. This is backed up by the nature of the tax and the availability of Quirinus who is locked out of the years after Varus' term because Josephus shows that he was acting governor while Archealus was away. You may not like Josephus' records, but they make more sense than an unknown Qurinus tax with an unknown Judas' revolt, just to put Luke's nativity in Herod's time.
As i recall you bowed out of the debate after that. Can I be blamed for thinking that I had the best of that one?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-29-2019 at 03:44 PM..
Now historians, scholars and atheists think this star was a magical star of some type and even make fun of it, thus showing their ignorance of astrology. However to the astrologer there is nothing magical about this star. Astrologers are well aware that planets do become stationary to the human eye at the times for retrogradation. Before a planet goes into retrogradation it begins to slow down dramatically and then seems to stop in its tracks all together. In astrology this phenomenon is known as the station of a planet. When a planet goes retrograde it actually goes through the same span of the zodiac 3 times, forward then backwards, then forwards again. When the planet changes direction, this is called a "station" or "being stationary" (motionless). The planet's progress through the zodiac slows down until it pauses (the station). Then it gradually starts moving again in the opposite direction.
This retrogradation of a planet is exactly what the magi seen when the planet/star they followed stopped above Bethlehem.
Thus we can see this so called magical star is not so magical at all but rather a regular occurrence of a planets traverse through the heavens.
It's hardly the sort of event that would make Magi from the east drop tool and gallop off the Jerusalem in search of a Messiah, nor could it possibly indicate any particular house as Matthew indicates. I do not find the attempts to explain the 'star' as some normal astronomical phenomenon convincing. And I recall that you never attempted to explain how Matthew has his family slide off to Egypt when Luke has his family 'return' to Nazareth right after the circumcision rites. I do recall that you tended to argue about details of astronomical phenomenon while ignoring the more serious problems with the nativities.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-29-2019 at 03:49 PM..
It's hardly the sort of event that would make Magi from the east drop tool and gallop off the Jerusalem in search of a Messiah, nor could it possibly indicate any particular house as Matthew indicates. I do not find the attempts to explain the 'star' as some normal astronomical phenomenon convincing.
Really cool post of pneuma, and it sounds very rational and I have really looked into this thing alot, and I have heard several different theories and that was the problem, they all sounded so right.
There is a coin still extant which depicts the event of the star of Bethleham, a very cool thing also.
What sticks out the most is that is birthday was already planned on Tishri 15th to be born in a Sukkah on the first days of Sukkot, born in a booth on the day of booths, in a booth which is constructed in a way and a tradition to be watching for the star because it was appointed to come on Sukkot.
Looking at the heavens is one thing, and looking into tradition showing a birth on Sukkot is another, there is so much circumstantial evidence that it builds into a mountain of proof.
I remember the business about the coin, and I'd love to know what sort of date they give it. But even if a remarkable astronomical phenomenon oocurred about the time, would it send magi from the east to Judea in search of a king of the Jews which they wanted to worship. For all they knew it was Herod's heir. It's too much Matthew constructing a story with all the signs of plot construction, plot plot -holes. Wouldn't Herod have sent an escort or trackers, at least, to see where the three went rather than trusting that they'd come and tell him? But that wouldn't do as Herod had to be at a loss and order a massacre. Unknown to history and indeed to any other gospel writer. In fact mark and John have never heard of a Bethlehem birth, though John knows that there ought to have been one, but suggests that there wasn't.
Matthew and Luke sought to rectify that omission - with two different and contradictory tales.
I remember the business about the coin, and I'd love to know what sort of date they give it. But even if a remarkable astronomical phenomenon oocurred about the time, would it send magi from the east to Judea in search of a king of the Jews which they wanted to worship. For all they knew it was Herod's heir. It's too much Matthew constructing a story with all the signs of plot construction, plot plot -holes. Wouldn't Herod have sent an escort or trackers, at least, to see where the three went rather than trusting that they'd come and tell him? But that wouldn't do as Herod had to be at a loss and order a massacre. Unknown to history and indeed to any other gospel writer. In fact mark and John have never heard of a Bethlehem birth, though John knows that there ought to have been one, but suggests that there wasn't.
Matthew and Luke sought to rectify that omission - with two different and contradictory tales.
Of course people have to look as the case made by both sides and decide - if their minds aren't made up already.
First, the world can only look at these things through a prism of Christianity that has absolutely no knowledge of what it is because they aren't in the same religion as Jesus, as the law and the prophets.
Those magi's were priests still living in Babylon after the Babylonian Exodus, they came bearing gifts and doing things that proved they knew of the Torah cycle, they knew of Sukkot and how the star was to be seen on Sukkot from a sukkah.
Those priests came in search of fulfilled prophesies in Judaism, looking for a king that had always been anticipated.
Christians are so far removed from all the knowledge of Judaism, it's traditions, it's rituals and it's Torah Cycle that they give the world false ideas that the world has a problem seeing past.
Like trying to prove you know what happens on the first day of Sukkot, what happens on the first night of Sukkot with everything the priests are doing and saying along with everything the congregation was doing and saying, and everything they were doing and saying was practice in anticipation of that star, of a birth, but all that information is rejected. Just saying, there is so much more information in learning the 7 feasts of Messiah, the comings and goings of the temple, learning the Torah cycle, the traditions, the rituals, and I can't express just what a mountain of information there is.
I stumbled upon Judaism about ten years ago, and I have been catching up studying like a mad man, and I can just say that Christians and the world have no idea how much information there is that they refuse to look at.
We here, we are always speaking about Judaism. Every single time you speak to a Christian, you two are having conversations of Judaism, when NEITHER of you love, practice or know anything about Judaism, the very thing you are speaking of.
Christians have no idea what a mountain of information they are not seeing, they speak of a religion they don't love, they don't practice and they don't know.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 03-29-2019 at 06:23 PM..
I have always given you more credit then this trans, seems I should not have.
Do you or do you not quote Josephus?
Do you agree with everything that Josephus is suppose to have written?
Paul quoted a roman poet do you suppose Paul believed everything that poet ever wrote.
And I did not try to discredit Josephus the Josephus and historical scholars did that but you would actually have to read the link to see that.
I will always give Trans the highest up most credit and my loyalty to a true person who at least believes what he says and stands behind what he believes.
I have the most upmost respect for him and I completely understand his agenda and what drives him to do what he does, afterall, I have been sitting in rooms with Atheists picking up my kids from school while the school wanted indocterinate my children with their own invented religion where they had no right. The anger and fury at the freaking system trying to ruin my children with what they thought was the only righteousness, THEIR stupid plumb line that doesn't make sense, and as far as I am concerned, '' CHILD ABUSE.''
I can see why he is working for what he is working toward, and that is freedom, LIBERTY.
First, the world can only look at these things through a prism of Christianity that has absolutely no knowledge of what it is because they aren't in the same religion as Jesus, as the law and the prophets.
Those magi's were priests still living in Babylon after the Babylonian Exodus, they came bearing gifts and doing things that proved they knew of the Torah cycle, they knew of Sukkot and how the star was to be seen on Sukkot from a sukkah.
Those priests came in search of fulfilled prophesies in Judaism, looking for a king that had always been anticipated.
Christians are so far removed from all the knowledge of Judaism, it's traditions, it's rituals and it's Torah Cycle that they give the world false ideas that the world has a problem seeing past.
Like trying to prove you know what happens on the first day of Sukkot, what happens on the first night of Sukkot with everything the priests are doing and saying along with everything the congregation was doing and saying, and everything they were doing and saying was practice in anticipation of that star, of a birth, but all that information is rejected. Just saying, there is so much more information in learning the 7 feasts of Messiah, the comings and goings of the temple, learning the Torah cycle, the traditions, the rituals, and I can't express just what a mountain of information there is.
I stumbled upon Judaism about ten years ago, and I have been catching up studying like a mad man, and I can just say that Christians and the world have no idea how much information there is that they refuse to look at.
We here, we are always speaking about Judaism. Every single time you speak to a Christian, you two are having conversations of Judaism, when NEITHER of you love, practice or know anything about Judaism, the very thing you are speaking of.
Christians have no idea what a mountain of information they are not seeing, they speak of a religion they don't love, they don't practice and they don't know.
It is possible that they knew of it; it is improbable that they would believe it.
I will always give Trans the highest up most credit and my loyalty to a true person who at least believes what he says and stands behind what he believes.
I have the most upmost respect for him and I completely understand his agenda and what drives him to do what he does, afterall, I have been sitting in rooms with Atheists picking up my kids from school while the school wanted indocterinate my children with their own invented religion where they had no right. The anger and fury at the freaking system trying to ruin my children with what they thought was the only righteousness, THEIR stupid plumb line that doesn't make sense, and as far as I am concerned, '' CHILD ABUSE.''
I can see why he is working for what he is working toward, and that is freedom, LIBERTY.
Thank you kindly I was sitting here waiting for...."But....."
Thank you kindly I was sitting here waiting for...."But....."
Just speaking the truth, and as far as I am concerned, you are family, and this is said by a hermit, my only family is here, and of course you know how much I love you and all my fellows.
It don't matter whether you believe in God or not, faith is not something that religion has a monopoly on, I see you as a great man of faith because of who I know you are. You have faith in decency, and what is fair and right, and you have faith in yourself, and that is enough for me, reality.
Again, you believe what you say when most religous people don't.
You are a true human being that stands loyal to your own convictions and this is what makes a man.
There are few too men to go around that when we find a real man, we should
acknowledge the ones that exist and are present.
Stick to your guns, when we get to Valhalla, we will have a laugh.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 03-29-2019 at 09:55 PM..
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I was sitting here waiting for...."But....."
