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I stated some of the evidence already, if you're ok with evidence from scripture.
The rest - just look up how the bible cannon was established - the detailed his-story.
Basically, it's a reminder to not have false gods - that even the book that tells you that - you should not worship as if infallible - because it was written by imperfect people. Have God only as your god - all else will fail. And who/what is God? God is the highest GOoD, truth based on love - which includes intelligent design. God is the spiritual feeling you feel within you - not an external thing you point to. (Luke 17)
I stated some of the evidence already, if you're ok with evidence from scripture.
The rest - just look up how the bible cannon was established - the detailed his-story.
Basically, it's a reminder to not have false gods - that even the book that tells you that - you should not worship as if infallible - because it was written by imperfect people. Have God only as your god - all else will fail. And who/what is God? God is the highest GOoD, truth based on love - which includes intelligent design. God is the spiritual feeling you feel within you - not an external thing you point to. (Luke 17)
Okay. I mean it's not an objection per se...but yeah...it's odd that people would work toward anything at all if it all comes down to grace...and I am wondering people's opinions on why God would deliberately just, I guess, damn a percentage of people this way? That seems really off to me. Just to me, mind you. It doesn't have to, to everybody...but I do find this really odd.
That doesn't mean that I don't believe that if there is a God, He can do what He wants. I think that would be a given, actually, and is not an "objection" I have in and of itself. I mean...when I'm bigger than somebody else, technically I can do what I want, too. That's just logic.
The concept of "grace" (a pagan and jewish concept at the time, "the law of heaven is that heaven does what it wants") was likely convenient for Paul to use because unlike the original apostles of Jesus who had to work hard to walk with Jesus and wrestle with his teachings directly, Paul killed Christians and then "had a audio-visual experience" that convinced him he would be Christianity's leader to convert pagans by any means and teachings necessary (and then proceed to collect "offerings" from them to "take back" to Jerusalem saying that they sold themselves for a price). This of course, would fit into his predetermined believes in immortality and the end of Roman rule over Jerusalem so that the world would respect Jews as their betters as it was prophesied. Jesus could have made use of the concept of "grace" as well, of course. The concept does lack a sense of fair justice, but that is just the way the anti-democratic concept of "kingdoms" goes sometimes.
Even if Might Makes Right, a God who is lawless or is Her own law is lawless still. The Muslims use this same line in a story where the Angels questions Allah, Allah responds with basically "stop thinking, I make the universe you guys are weaker, you must bow to me." It's really weird that people fall so easily for these sorts of childish lines, but people are kids at heart most of the time. It's likely a natural Machiavellian instinct to recognize that Might must be at least respected. Still, it's a pretty monstrous fact of amoral nature... and it would be just as monstrous if its by a conscious law or another that some given infinite god (out of the infinite possible, even concurrently with each other actually) pulls from its or their darkest reaches. Then the only truly objective law would be that Mightiest Makes Mightiest.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 12-22-2016 at 11:59 PM..
I stated some of the evidence already, if you're ok with evidence from scripture.
The rest - just look up how the bible cannon was established - the detailed his-story.
Basically, it's a reminder to not have false gods - that even the book that tells you that - you should not worship as if infallible - because it was written by imperfect people. Have God only as your god - all else will fail. And who/what is God? God is the highest GOoD, truth based on love - which includes intelligent design. God is the spiritual feeling you feel within you - not an external thing you point to. (Luke 17)
Funny how you pointed to Luke 17 when you said that, just saying. Using bibliolatry (explicitly) to justify anti-bibliolatry is rather odd. Gods are definitely external things you point to, otherwise they are just yourself. Don't get me wrong, when you read a book for yourself you are literally doing it for yourself. So pointing to a book is actually more often meant to point to "your" interpretation of the book. So then the book isn't magic or divine or whatever, it is "your particular interoperation" that is magical and divine and "right." By extension, even Bibliolatry is self-agrandization in these and other ways.
It's part of our understanding of the medical science of raising children. Asking for scripture is exactly the wrong proof. Here is where you would ask for science evidence on the age of reason, instead you ask about scripture.
The closest we have as Proverbs 22:6 which notes that children at a young age learn morality better.
I don't recall that anyone has brought up the concise definition of "grace" which is "unmerited favor". A boon which you do not deserve.
Even humans can be "gracious" (marked by kindness, courtesy, tact and delicacy).
The notion is that god, who has the right to judge us, is approachable and gentle and kind by choice, as well as, of course, forgiving.
Unless of course you don't understand or trust or accept his grace. Then you'll burn ;-)
FYI, the only burning in hell is one's conscience. Ever felt shame? In hell, the pain is magnified and extremely hurtful.
A way to deal with negative emotions, thoughts and feelings before we leave this earth is to either pray for God's Divine Love, which has a fast soul cleansing effect, or to pray to have our sins removed, which is a slower process. By knowing and understanding the process of violating... let's say, God's Law of Love by being hateful towards somebody, this causes darkness on our soul. The Law of Cause and Effect goes into action, and you reap what you sow, i.e., suffer the consequences.
But hell is not eternal. It's a "time out" place where those who find themselves in that predicament are helped to get out, even though sometimes it may take centuries. The goal is to have a completely purified soul with not one teensy spot of darkness. God has decreed that hell will eventually be eliminated, and so it will be. This is by God's Grace that He wants all of His children to be happy. And we will be.
FYI, the only burning in hell is one's conscience. Ever felt shame? In hell, the pain is magnified and extremely hurtful.
A way to deal with negative emotions, thoughts and feelings before we leave this earth is to either pray for God's Divine Love, which has a fast soul cleansing effect, or to pray to have our sins removed, which is a slower process. By knowing and understanding the process of violating... let's say, God's Law of Love by being hateful towards somebody, this causes darkness on our soul. The Law of Cause and Effect goes into action, and you reap what you sow, i.e., suffer the consequences.
But hell is not eternal. It's a "time out" place where those who find themselves in that predicament are helped to get out, even though sometimes it may take centuries. The goal is to have a completely purified soul with not one teensy spot of darkness. God has decreed that hell will eventually be eliminated, and so it will be. This is by God's Grace that He wants all of His children to be happy. And we will be.
The Buddha enlightens all in hells because it is a shame to ignore or shun those who don't worship you and to not educate and increase happiness and minimize suffering for all the sentient beings possible as soon as possible. The Buddha doesn't believe in begging (prayer) but people do believe in begging and groveling, so sometimes it is useful to let them do it as they wish. The Buddha agrees with all that is good, but none of the dark-age concepts in Christianity, such as the idea that a creation (child) is the property of it's creator (parent), or that a heavenly dictatorship is better than a heavenly democracy.
The Muslims use this same line in a story where the Angels questions Allah, Allah responds with basically "stop thinking, I make the universe you guys are weaker, you must bow to me." It's really weird that people fall so easily for these sorts .
lol haha
You are talking about Quran 2:30 and the dialogue after it?
Quite misinformed, aren't we?
God didn't say to the angles to bow me.
You are not only misquoting but more importantly, misinformed with poor explanation. God replied to the question raised by the angles IF you read further.
Here it is if you want to VERIFY and update your knowledge.
Excuse the audio quality but it will help if you have a headphone. This is an interesting one.
The Buddha enlightens all in hells because it is a shame to ignore or shun those who don't worship you and to not educate and increase happiness and minimize suffering for all the sentient beings possible as soon as possible. The Buddha doesn't believe in begging (prayer) but people do believe in begging and groveling, so sometimes it is useful to let them do it as they wish. The Buddha agrees with all that is good, but none of the dark-age concepts in Christianity, such as the idea that a creation (child) is the property of it's creator (parent), or that a heavenly dictatorship is better than a heavenly democracy.
That was the point of my comment, I was highlighting the "strong parent" authoritarian shaming / punishing concept toward misbehavior of the Abrahamic faiths. There are less unenlightened approaches to that in other faith traditions, and then there is of course the total focus on reconciliation and rehabilitation of enlightened secular penal systems. My observation is that religious faith, not having a bias toward reality or truth or reduction of suffering, tends more often than not to lead to these dark places.
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