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no "organized religion" = no accountability = no accepted standards
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Originally Posted by Matadora
This is a FALSE as it gets. Just because someone does not follow Organized Religion does not mean that they are void of standards.
Therefore, the original comment is a falsehood.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
"i am my own clergy" = a person can interpret words and books to mean whatever they want
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Well it means they can slice and dice out what ever they don't like and twist it however they want. I have noticed all folks involved in religion do this very thing.
Matadora, the comment above in bold was meant for me only. But you are correct even in response to that comment which was born by twisting my comment, "I am clergy of my self" to "i am my own clergy". The poster has used deception. She didn't have the decency to at least quote my statement correctly.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
anything goes = rampant dishonesty = requisite deception = because no one is ever held accountable
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Originally Posted by Matadora
This is such a harsh assumption. How do you know that a person who chooses to follow the beat of their own drum is embarking upon rampant dishonesty and views it as anything goes on top of not accepting accountability for their every action?
It wasn't just harsh assumption but plain dishonesty by totally twisting my views presented in this thread about accountability regarding my actions.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
You view others with such harsh judgement. Do you not see or hear the venom in your words?
She doesn't see the venom in her words. It is self-proclaimed Divinity in her that is pouring forth the light:
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
The Divinity in me pours forth light, and God takes that light and delivers it to the dark places where it is needed.
Yeah, God has just delivered the light in this dark place poured forth from her Divinity.
For a bit I had begun to think that there is no venom in her words but it is quite obvious to me now that I was utterly wrong in thinking so.
As for the ordained clergy in an organized religion, I was correct; there is no such clergy in Islam:
"Muslims do not formally ordain religious leaders. Ordination is viewed as a distinct aspect of other religions and is rejected. Islam does not have a formal and separated clergy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination#Islam
As for the ordained clergy in an organized religion, I was correct; there is no such clergy in Islam:
"Muslims do not formally ordain religious leaders. Ordination is viewed as a distinct aspect of other religions and is rejected. Islam does not have a formal and separated clergy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination#Islam
Khalif, ordaining religious leaders is not what constitutes Organized Religion.
Organized religion is a structured system of faith or worship, especially one followed by a large number of people.
Is Islam a structured system of worship? Yes because an "organized religion" is a faith system with an over-arching structure in place to define doctrine, standardize worship practices, and administrate the organization. Islam does all of the above.
Is Islam followed by a large number of people? Yes
Khalif, ordaining religious leaders is not what constitutes Organized Religion.
Matadora, there is big difference in religion and an Organized Religion.
In an "Organized" religion, there has to be hierarchical structure and a leader (such as Pope is in Catholicism). This is what really makes a religion an Organized religion as if it is an organization with hierarchy. There is no such hierarchy of persons ranked above another in Islam.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Organized religion is a structured system of faith or worship, especially one followed by a large number of people.
Faith is just what one believes. Worship is personal, and can be done on one's own. I do not need to go to a mosque to worship with others. I pray at home a lot more than in a mosque.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Is Islam a structured system of worship? Yes because an "organized religion" is a faith system with an over-arching structure in place to define doctrine, standardize worship practices, and administrate the organization. Islam does all of the above.
There is no over-arching structure in place in Islam today defining doctrine, standardized worship practices and nothing administrates it as if it is an organization. As there is no leadership, there is no leader to administrate it. Do you know who is administrating Islam as an organization today?
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Is Islam followed by a large number of people? Yes
It can be followed by any one person at home, in the street, in a jungle with nobody else around. It is essentially a path that can be followed by any person on his/her own. Islam is submitting to God by taking His guidance. I follow it and in my actions I try to make sure that it does not adversely affect any other living being and, if anything, it should only help others by my doing good to them. I understand Islam in that context.
That sounds ingenuous to me. Sure you do it at home, or in the Office (Boy I can tell you that it can be done in the office ) but in a particular way, using particular formula at particular times and facing a particular way. That is as Organized as doing it a hundred or so in a mosque.
When you sit quietly at home meditating on a creator -god of all religions or none and not bawling it out so that it (not the absurd Human -gender "He") can hear, then I'll think in terms of a 'religion' that isn't 'Organized' and being one's own 'Clergy'.
Ok, you may see it differently, but you have to remember that in discussion, you have to persuade us that what you see stacks up, or you have not made your case.
The religious so often seem to think that if they have not been talked into rethinking their views, they must be right. It doesn't work that way. You have to make the case to others, or you are wearing out your fingers to no purpose.
Now we are coming to the most interesting conclusion of this part of the study: only one branch on the tree of haplotypes of Jews and Arabs of haplogroup J1, which turned out to be the oldest branch, is a double one, i.e., one half of the branch is comprised of Jews and the other half is comprised of Arabs; those branches converge at one deepest (in time) point, that is, to one common ancestor. Calculations immediately showed that the common ancestor of Jews and Arabs lived about4,000 years ago. This is the time when the Biblical Abraham lived, although the haplotypes in the branch do not, of course, disclose his name.
That sounds ingenuous to me. Sure you do it at home, or in the Office (Boy I can tell you that it can be done in the office ) but in a particular way, using particular formula at particular times and facing a particular way. That is as Organized as doing it a hundred or so in a mosque.
"but in a particular way"? What is that particular way, sitting, standing, riding on a camel? Can we do it lying flat in a bed? Which way is an organized worship? We are talking here about "Organized Religion", not "Organized Worship"?
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
When you sit quietly at home meditating on a creator -god of all religions or none and not bawling it out so that it (not the absurd Human -gender "He") can hear, then I'll think in terms of a 'religion' that isn't 'Organized' and being one's own 'Clergy'.
We don't have to be bawling it out or singing or clapping or dancing to a beat to make Him/Her/It hear. And you are clergy of your self when you purify your self through your thoughts and actions. If Pope, Bin Laden, Satan or Baghdadi is controlling your actions then you are not clergy of your self but either Satan or Baghdadi is.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Ok, you may see it differently, but you have to remember that in discussion, you have to persuade us that what you see stacks up, or you have not made your case.
You have to first understand what I am saying if I say, "I am clergy of my self". It doesn't mean "my own clergy" or "one's own clergy". It means "clergy of my nafs ('self'/'soul')".
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
The religious so often seem to think that if they have not been talked into rethinking their views, they must be right. It doesn't work that way. You have to make the case to others, or you are wearing out your fingers to no purpose.
I never think that I am always right. A person who never makes a mistake is someone who never does anything. I do make mistakes and that's how I sometimes learn; through my mistakes. I also know that if someone is not going to believe me, it would be impossible for me to make the case to him/her. And I also know that if someone disagrees with me it does not mean that I haven't made my case with him/her.
Matadora, there is big difference in religion and an Organized Religion.
No there's not...it's one in the same. You are just in denial about it and are dabbling confirmation bias.
Organized Religion is also known as institutional religion, it's religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established.
"but in a particular way"? What is that particular way, sitting, standing, riding on a camel? Can we do it lying flat in a bed? Which way is an organized worship? We are talking here about "Organized Religion", not "Organized Worship"?
Standing then kneeling and facing east. I know as I have seen it done while we were trying to work. That is the way it should be done at home. If you do it a different way, you have invented your own version of the Muslim religion.
You can still call yourself a Muslim and take your inspiration from the Quran, but it is still a religion all of your own. Good luck with it.
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We don't have to be bawling it out or singing or clapping or dancing to a beat to make Him/Her/It hear. And you are clergy of your self when you purify your self through your thoughts and actions. If Pope, Bin Laden, Satan or Baghdadi is controlling your actions then you are not clergy of your self but either Satan or Baghdadi is.
I agree with that, and you know better than me how it is done in a mosque. But however it is done in a Mosque, if you do it differently, you have invented your own religion.
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You have to first understand what I am saying if I say, "I am clergy of my self". It doesn't mean "my own clergy" or "one's own clergy". It means "clergy of my nafs ('self'/'soul')".
Then you have invented your own religion for sure and have appointed you the Imam of it. I don't mind. The Muslims might.
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I never think that I am always right. A person who never makes a mistake is someone who never does anything. I do make mistakes and that's how I sometimes learn; through my mistakes. I also know that if someone is not going to believe me, it would be impossible for me to make the case to him/her. And I also know that if someone disagrees with me it does not mean that I haven't made my case with him/her.
Everyone makes mistakes. I make my fair share and I am always looking to reshape my views in discussion. I hope I'm not the only one.
No there's not...it's one in the same. You are just in denial about it and are dabbling confirmation bias.
Organized Religion is also known as institutional religion, it's religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established.
Depends how you use the words. some people believe in the Bible and Jesus, but don't have any truck with the churches. They do their own thing. I call it Theism, but it isn't Organized religion. "religion" can be used to refer to either of those different ways of doing the belief.
No there's not...it's one in the same. You are just in denial about it and are dabbling confirmation bias.
Organized Religion is also known as institutional religion, it's religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established.
In Islam, there is nobody today to formally establish and systematically arrange belief systems and rituals. There is no hierarchy to formally establish everything in Islam. Even belief systems vary. Some believe only in the Qur'an and others in hadith books too. Even the hadith books are different for one group of Muslims than the other group. There is nobody to establish and arrange the whole formally. Even the imams are not elected formally but chosen informally and often temporarily to lead only the prayer if there are more than one worshipers at any one place.
Catholicism, with Pope at the top, is organized religion. It has hierarchical system. Islam has no such hierarchical system to organize belief systems or an organized system of excommunication.
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