Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In Islam, there is nobody today to formally establish and systematically arrange belief systems and rituals. There is no hierarchy to formally establish everything in Islam. Even belief systems vary. Some believe only in the Qur'an and others in hadith books too. Even the hadith books are different for one group of Muslims than the other group.
Same with Christianity. Some believe in the OT some the NT. Some believe Jesus is the son of god and some believe he is god. There are so many different interpretations of the bible as well...this does not dismiss Christianity from being Organized Religion...just as what you posted does not dismiss Islam from falling into the category Organized Religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Catholicism, with Pope at the top, is organized religion. It has hierarchical system. Islam has no such hierarchical system to organize belief systems or an organized system of excommunication.
Catholicism is a denomination not a Religion such as Christianity.
Standing then bowing then prostrating then sitting facing West in UAE and South in Iraq and North when in Sana (Yemen).
[Qur'an 2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in God and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who are conscious (of God).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I know as I have seen it done while we were trying to work. That is the way it should be done at home. If you do it a different way, you have invented your own version of the Muslim religion.
I face down when prostrating. I don't have to move a muscle to pray if I am not well and in bed. It would still be praying. 9/11 terrorists didn't care less which direction they were facing when saying ALLAHU-AKBAR. Now you may call their religion as Organized Religion as they were organized by Bin Laden but nobody is organizing my religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
You can still call yourself a Muslim and take your inspiration from the Quran, but it is still a religion all of your own. Good luck with it.
Yes, I am accountable for my own actions only. Whatever I do, is my religion. I am organizing it myself for myself by taking the guidance from the Qur'an and reading the previous scriptures too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I agree with that, and you know better than me how it is done in a mosque. But however it is done in a Mosque, if you do it differently, you have invented your own religion.
In mosque, praying is done in two ways; in congregation and individually. Congregation is organised but outside a congregation it is not organised. One can pray even by staying still. Taking certain postures are for a reason but are not a must for praying to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Then you have invented your own religion for sure and have appointed you the Imam of it. I don't mind. The Muslims might.
Muslim won't mind; they understand what I have stated about "self" ("nafs"/"soul").
[91.9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it, [91.10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Everyone makes mistakes. I make my fair share and I am always looking to reshape my views in discussion. I hope I'm not the only one.
I too have been looking to shape my views. You may have noticed that some of my views are different from many other Muslims. Most do not read the previous scriptures. I do try to read them alongside the Qur'an so that I do not misunderstand the Qur'an. Many Muslims do misunderstand the Qur'an.
Catholicism is a denomination not a Religion such as Christianity.
In that case, there is no Christianity; only different denominations.
Catholicism IS the main denomination in Christianity and has hierarchical system. In Islam today, the two main sects are Sunni and Shiite. Sunnis are the largest group with no hierarchy.
Personally, I am not part of any sect, group or denomination.
Standing then bowing then prostrating then sitting facing West in UAE and South in Iraq and North when in Sana (Yemen).
[Qur'an 2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in God and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who are conscious (of God).
I face down when prostrating. I don't have to move a muscle to pray if I am not well and in bed. It would still be praying. 9/11 terrorists didn't care less which direction they were facing when saying ALLAHU-AKBAR. Now you may call their religion as Organized Religion as they were organized by Bin Laden but nobody is organizing my religion.
Yes, I am accountable for my own actions only. Whatever I do, is my religion. I am organizing it myself for myself by taking the guidance from the Qur'an and reading the previous scriptures too.
In mosque, praying is done in two ways; in congregation and individually. Congregation is organised but outside a congregation it is not organised. One can pray even by staying still. Taking certain postures are for a reason but are not a must for praying to God.
Muslim won't mind; they understand what I have stated about "self" ("nafs"/"soul").
[91.9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it, [91.10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.
I too have been looking to shape my views. You may have noticed that some of my views are different from many other Muslims. Most do not read the previous scriptures. I do try to read them alongside the Qur'an so that I do not misunderstand the Qur'an. Many Muslims do misunderstand the Qur'an.
Ok I understand that practices may vary. You may be familiar with one or another tradition - so that standing, bowing, kneeling or whatever, or indeed have created your own. You may be right that the average Muslim may be ok with that, but I have seen some reports that they will (unless you live in a country where Islam has no social authority) take a "Under which king? Speak or die" attitude.
It seems clear that you are devising your own brand of Islam. That's ok by me. You might ask foot - smeller or our Pal LI whether that is likely to miss the interest of the Haram Police. But I'd suggest that it implies (as I posted, during our discussion) that your view that the "Islam' idea doesn't mean that the others should convert and that they needn't fear hellfire if they don't is purely your own idea and I might question whether that is the mainstream Muslim view.
It wasn't easy to get the "mainstream' view, but this seems to show that the Amrahamix believers are ready to receive the message of the Quran. It will be better for them.
Now, I saw quite a few clips looking for that, but this one grabbed me. This man is saying 'Wake up,!Muslim world.' stop with the Boko Haram stuff. Be willing to learn from the West.
It used to be like that. True, the West colonized, and then the dictators held power by casting the West as the enemy. With the Israel thing going, it is easy. But once, it was great to visit.
But how I would love to love the Muslim countries as I do the others. How I'd love to visit Egypt and Iraq, Isfahan and Sa'na as I do Angkor or Pagan.
And it could happen faster than we might believe. And muslim secularism is the key. Drop the religious differences and the wars are over. Yes, even Israel is solved, because if no one religion claims the land, every religion can live there. And I heard that Israel is getting secular, too.
Just as the 'Nones' need to depose the religion -based hostilities in Christianity (and Judaism) the Muslims need to do it and take back the opportunity to become ... better. They have to do it themselves. We can't. And it doesn't mean abolishing religion, but living in a secular society - with religions in it. They can be religious if they want, but not, if they don't. No compulsion.
I want it to happen in my lifetime. Maybe it won't, but that's why, though I have greatly enjoyed talking to Muslims here, I'd love to see Ex Muslims posting on A/A.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-01-2017 at 03:44 PM..
And yes, this is key. Secularism is different from atheism.
The US is mistakenly called an atheist state, because those who believe such haven't done their research. What's the difference?
Atheist state: Religion is forbidden. By law atheism is the official religion, so other religions are not allowed.
Secular state: Under official religion, rather than saying Atheism, it says None. That means no religion is legal.
I have read several accounts of the pre-Islamic religions. They had ALOT of religions, and they were generally really tolerant. So tolerant in fact that for 13 straight years of him verbally and eventually physically attacking them, they were like "cool beans." This despite the fact that there was in insane "prophet" in their town disrupting tourism. When they did attack, they didn't attack all Muslims, they only in fact wanted Muhammad. After basically subjugating most of pagans through force, he tried to win the Jews over by telling them all about his great new religion. Unfortunately for him, his stories of "Abrahamic tradition" actually were just propped up myths about him (that's right, Islam has NO descent from the Judaic religion) and the Jews knew their Torah, unlike the professor on the OP. In fact, the Islamic attempt to play nice fell apart immediately when Jews told them in not uncertain terms that while the Muslims could stay there, Muhammad was not in the line of their Jewish prophets.
I could go on, but in short, Islam is already more a political program than it is a religion. It's a cult of personality with a standing army. In order to "secularize" Islam, you would have to first need to take Muhammad and his writings out of the equation. And since Muhammad basically swallowed up what they believed in before (which was tolerant and secular), you would paradoxically need to give them a NEW religion in the interrim to prevent them from backsliding to Islam. Zoroastrianism would be the most likely candidate as it was a religion that was similar to that which occurred near the area.
I am not sure why you are struggling with the concepts of what Religion/Organized Religion is.
Look up Abrahamic Religions and learn which one's are. Yes both Islam and Christianity are religions and both are organized religions.
Think whatever you want. I'm done here...time to agree to disagree.
Thank you for your views, Matadora. We are both looking at the issue from two different angles. You are looking at Islam from outside and I am from inside with personal experience.
The way I see Islam is something personal. It is how an individual lives his life believing and doing good to others, humanity and the environment. To do that, I don't need an Organized Religion.
Anyhow, thanks once again and, yes, it's time to agree to disagree
I want it to happen in my lifetime. Maybe it won't, but that's why, though I have greatly enjoyed talking to Muslims here, I'd love to see Ex Muslims posting on A/A.
Ex Muslims do not understand the Qur'an, the main reason they leave Islam. Many mainstream Muslims also do not understand the Qur'an. They are too much into hadith books rather than concentrating on the teachings of the Qur'an.
You may have noticed by now that I am a bit different. My views are based on the teachings of the Qur'an. I have even quoted verses from the Qur'an to explain my views.
The clips in your last post show some of the points I have been making in this thread. There is too much politics in religion today and not enough religious essence. I see a vast majority of Muslims today far away from Islam. It has been predicted even in the Qur'an:
[25.30] And the messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.
The way I see Islam is something personal. It is how an individual lives his life believing and doing good to others, humanity and the environment. To do that, I don't need an Organized Religion.
Just to be clear. You don't have to ascribe Islam or any other organized religion to be an kind spirted individual living as their higher self, doing good to others, to other animal species, to the earth/environment etc.
In that case, there is no Christianity; only different denominations.
Catholicism IS the main denomination in Christianity and has hierarchical system. In Islam today, the two main sects are Sunni and Shiite. Sunnis are the largest group with no hierarchy.
Personally, I am not part of any sect, group or denomination.
Yes. We are beginning to get a view of your approach to the Muslim religion, but really your views are irrelevant if they don't reflect the consensus -views of the main Muslim sects.
I don't see why the idea is eluding you. Because a religion divides into various sects or denominations does not show that there is no religion, It shows that there is and you can identify it by it's practices, just as you can distinguish Shiah from Sunni by various dogmas or shibboleths (1). Which is why it is not hard to tell Muslim religion from Jewish and Christian, even though they will, more or less, that it is submission to the same god - in different ways, and more often that not each saying the other has the wrong method and is going to have to pay for that some time.
No matter what your own particular interpretation is, that is the way it is and we know it, and trying to pretend it is something else by tinkering around with semantics and dictionary definitions is something we are familiar with after a decade of Creationist trickery.
Now, we are always open to new views and information. But so far nothing has been presented to change the very prevalent view that religions are all different, generally think the others have it wrong, and can split into various sects which may agree they have the same god, but the wrong methods.
That you have a private sect of your own with it's own commentary on the Quran makes no difference to that and really, if you were going to preach the new Revelation of Khaliffiyah, you might try it on the Islam forum.
(1) yes - I know - in this case authority through the family or the Caliphs.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
and I am always looking to reshape my views in discussion. I hope I'm not the only one.
