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since they float so easily clouds may look all light and fluffy, but the reality is that clouds are actually pretty heavy
And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain).
Till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud,
We drive it to a land that is dead,
then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon.
Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith.
Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember The Holy Quran 7.57
since they float so easily clouds may look all light and fluffy, but the reality is that clouds are actually pretty heavy
And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain).
Till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud,
We drive it to a land that is dead,
then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon.
Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith.
Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember The Holy Quran 7.57
As long as a cloud is lighter (less dense) than the air below it, it will float. Basic physics.
You can see the actual calculations of the weight of a cloud on the Internet and read explanations for why a cloud floats on line or on books other than your source.
The 'heaviness' here is evidently related to the idea that it is 'filled' with rain, which of course is known to weigh a fair bit in quantity. But in clouds (despite the heave -dark look in rain clouds) it is not actually 'heavy'. The quran is again talking from a human viewpoint, not a scientifically correct nor, for that matter, a God -knowledgeable, viewpoint.
Nice try though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him,
he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee.
He said: Thou wilt not see Me,
but gaze upon the mountain!
If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me.
And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain
He sent it crashing down.
And Moses fell down senseless.
And when he woke he said:
Glory unto Thee!
I turn unto Thee repentant,
and I am the first of (true) believers. The Holy Quran 7:143
Since that story isn't in the OT I think we can discard it as untrue, which not only does not validate a god but rather debunks the Quran.
I note that you are reiterating some of your best 'evidences' but the probability is that the people who wrote the quran (in the sophisticated and courtly arabic that suggests an intellectual source rather than related by an illiterate merchant) had access to a lot of medical and geographical information.
As against that I have to reiterate that the claim about salt and fresh water not mixing is false, the passage about the sun sinking into the swamp is told from human understanding not a god's advanced knowledge and the battle in the low place, so far from being an amazing prediction, pretty much dates the earliest date the quran in its' present form was written. And if I am right in placing (from the text) the battle at Antioch (613 AD), it is nothing to do with the dead sea area.
I'd say that you are losing on points.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-31-2021 at 11:31 AM..
The 'heaviness' here is evidently related to the idea that it is 'filled' with rain, which of course is known to weigh a fair bit in quantity. But in clouds (despite the heave -dark look in rain clouds) it is not actually 'heavy'. The quran is again talking from a human viewpoint, not a scientifically correct nor, for that matter, a God -knowledgeable, viewpoint.
Nice try though.
The heaviness of rain clouds is mentioned in several secular and ancient writings. We still use the phrase "clouds heavily laden with rain" and we have never read the Quran or heard it mentioned from the Quran. Shakespeare used it and he knew nothing about the Quran (although he was a well educated man).
since they float so easily clouds may look all light and fluffy, but the reality is that clouds are actually pretty heavy
And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain).
Till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud,
We drive it to a land that is dead,
then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon.
Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith.
Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember The Holy Quran 7.57
What is intriguing though is the idea TT has that even though the Quran has been shown wrong about that biggie (salt and fresh water do mix), he has only to find some other 'science in the Bible' argument and that will validate the whole thing as the 'word of God' and all the incorrect stuff can just be forgotten.
The 'battle in the Low place' (If I have it correctly - and no historian seems to have clicked on this, so maybe I'm wrong somewhere) if it is the battle of Antioch which comes after the battle at Nineveh (613) it would be after the reputed Revelation in 610, but would be history until the death of Muhammad, 632 and of course during the 1st caliphade (the Rashidun) and especially during the next one.
Quran was recompiled for uniformity in recitation (r. 644–56 CE).[2] under the direction of the third caliph — Uthman ibn Affan. (it says on the internet - otherwise I'm using my memory.)
Since 'recompiled' would mean written, effectively in the sophisticated and courtly arabic that was used in aristocratic and diplomatic circles, which would look as marvellous and as hard to reproduce as our late al Woddrow used to argue (and thus has to be dictated by God).
If so, that means that there are no good reasons to ascribe a divine origin to the Quran and several good reasons to regard it as the writing of the men of the time.
It seems that after 100 pages of 'evidences' for the Quran, TT has only succeeded in debunking it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-01-2021 at 05:06 AM..
since they float so easily clouds may look all light and fluffy, but the reality is that clouds are actually pretty heavy
And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain).
Till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud,
We drive it to a land that is dead,
then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon.
Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith.
Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember The Holy Quran 7.57
The 'heaviness' here is evidently related to the idea that it is 'filled' with rain, which of course is known to weigh a fair bit in quantity. But in clouds (despite the heave -dark look in rain clouds) it is not actually 'heavy'. The quran is again talking from a human viewpoint, not a scientifically correct nor, for that matter, a God -knowledgeable, viewpoint.
Nice try though.
Since that story isn't in the OT I think we can discard it as untrue, which not only does not validate a god but rather debunks the Quran.
I note that you are reiterating some of your best 'evidences' but the probability is that the people who wrote the quran (in the sophisticated and courtly arabic that suggests an intellectual source rather than related by an illiterate merchant) had access to a lot of medical and geographical information.
As against that I have to reiterate that the claim about salt and fresh water not mixing is false, the passage about the sun sinking into the swamp is told from human understanding not a god's advanced knowledge and the battle in the low place, so far from being an amazing prediction, pretty much dates the earliest date the quran in its' present form was written. And if I am right in placing (from the text) the battle at Antioch (613 AD), it is nothing to do with the dead sea area.
I'd say that you are losing on points.
Both Islam and Christianity is founded in Judaism. They are sister religions, actually, the same religion, and both have common holy days, both against Judaism, their foundation.
After you have discredited your own foundation, what then is left?
Well....this is a problem the Biblical religions have always had. While they are based on the same claims, effectively, they are stuck with saying that the others are wrong - somehow. Usually because they lack some dogmatic claim that the revised religion has. Buddhism and Hinduism have the same problem. In fact this is what we get with theistic religion in general. They agree that it is the same God, but they damn each other because they worship it differently. Same thing with various denominations.
And they still expect rationalists to take them seriously. Or failing that, treat them with "Respect" - that con that means 'we can say what we like about atheists, but you can't criticize us, oh no'. At least most of them don't go as far as gunning down those who are not 'Respectful' enough.
If God wanted to show evidence of his existence, he can show himself. This ah this is a miracle here and this is evidence Islam is true there is pointless and stupid. Religion is based on faith not facts.
To the OP I could list multiple hadiths that are clearly wrong which Mohammad said. So therefore by the same argument of yours, Mohammad is not a true prophet. Bingo.
What did Jesus have to do (numerous times) for his closest disciples during his 33 yrs here on earth?!!
He had to DEMONSTRATE his abilities/powers...for them to believe he was who he claimed to be!
If Jesus's own disciples required proof they could see with their own eyes and touch with their own hands...why should people living 2000 yrs later, be expected to just 'have faith to believe'?
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