America’s Changing Religious Identity (Savior, gay, teaching, sin)

[badlander]

Originally Posted by Shirina

*sigh* I hate scripture wars ... but ... here we go.

Genesis 8:20-21: Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma…

Exodus 29:18: Then burn the entire ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.

Exodus 29:25: Then take them from their hands and burn them on the altar along with the burnt offering for a pleasing aroma to the LORD, an offering made to the LORD by fire.

Exodus 29:41: Sacrifice the other lamb at twilight with the same grain offering and its drink offering as in the morning—a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.

Leviticus 1:9: He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Now ... please, Jeff. You can disagree with me all day long about the interpretation of verses, but don't tell me that I "don't know the Bible" very well when I can clearly contradict you. Of course, all we've both done is highlight more Biblical contradictions -- which is what happens with a book written by scores of authors over the course of a thousand years. You'd think being "divinely inspired" and all, God would have guided these authors not to make so many obvious errors.



Well ... okay, Jeff ... that was explained well enough and I won't dispute you on this point.

You can actually do your faith justice if you stayed away from the radicalism and theocratic fascism.



Ah yes, the primitive mentality of someone whose faith is still stuck in the Medieval cesspools of uneducated Europe -- a mentality that STILL believes that every turn of events occurs due to the whimsical emotions of an unstable deity. Of course, you'll continue going through this world with those archaic and hopelessly benighted views on why things happened the way they did. Alas, more historical ignorance replaced only with the fickle -- and feckless -- desires of irrational divinity.

Here's what REALLY happened, Jeff:

The United States emerged from WWII as the ONLY major nation completely untouched by the war. We had an astoundingly large merchant fleet, our infrastructure and industry did not suffer so much as a scratch, our people were not traumatized by occupation, the Holocaust, severe deprivation, or non-stop round the clock bombing. At the end of the war, America owned 2/3rds of the world's gold reserves and constituted 80% of the world's industry. Plus, we became without question the most powerful nation on the planet both economically and militarily (we were the only nation with "The Bomb" at that time -- as well as having the only bomber large enough to carry it).

The rest of the world had been obliterated by six years of war. Britain, France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Italy, the Soviet Union (especially everything west of the Urals), Japan, China, the Philippines, the Korean peninsula ... all of it was little better than a heap of ashes and rubble. Every nation came running to us for loans to rebuild, they came to us for the tools to do that rebuilding, and the USA sucked it all up greedily -- making us wildly prosperous.

It had ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH to do with the fact that our stores used to be closed on Sunday. Are you friggin' kidding me? Do you even understand the concept of historical forces?

Then, time caught up with America. One of the advantages of having to rebuild your infrastructure from scratch is that you have an entire nation filled with state-of-the-art factories, machinery, and vehicles. America lost a lot of ground to that -- our infrastructure, our industry, our factories became increasingly obsolete. Instead of investing in our industry, GOP leaders from Reagan onwards decided to simply let the manufacturing sector die a slow, lingering death. Under Clinton, for instance, 67% of all new jobs created were considered "low wage" -- and it's only gotten worse.

Now -- we build practically nothing. The vast majority of jobs in this nation are now low-paying service jobs. Instead of building cars, computers, refrigerators, and televisions, we punch cash registers, flip burgers, answer phones, bus tables, and clean toilets while the other nations prosper. America became wealthy enough that the power-elite no longer had to worry about actually owning businesses and producing things. Instead, the used money to make money .... which made more money, and the squirrel it all away in offshore taxhavens (the Caymans is estimated to have nearly $50 trillion in untaxed, uninvested money sitting there doing nothing. And that's only ONE tax haven.)

Again, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with allowing stores to open on Saturday. It had NOTHING to do with the advent of secular humanism, taking prayer out of our schools or any of that utter CRAP.

Everything you claim happened can be easily and obviously explained by the forces of history -- forces that were created and controlled by regular, very mortal, human beings. Nothing "magical" occurred, nothing supernatural or miraculous happened.

And if God would seriously allow a bunch of kindergarten kids to be murdered by a psychopath all because he's all butthurt over not forcing kids to pray in unison, then if I were you, I would SERIOUSLY stop to consider just what kind of ass you're worshiping. If a human being did something like that, and you were at all moral, you'd be up in arms wanting to string up such a cruel and vindictive person. But for some bizarre reason, the being who is supposed to be the wellspring of goodness, love, and forgiveness didn't bat an eyelash as 20+ 5 and 6 year-olds were slaughtered.

But rest assured that even if kids were pistol-whipped and starved within our public schools until they converted to Christianity, those shootings would have happened anyway. Only those with the most primitive form of religious belief still thinks God pulls every string.

Strange, isn't it, that God is a-okay with punishing the innocent for the crimes of others, but doesn't REWARD anyone for even the most pious of faith. It would seem that your god is only capable of punishment -- a parent who slaps around his kids and never once buys them a toy no matter how well behaved they are. That's called abuse, by the way.

In any event, I could go into A LOT of political and economic detail as to why America prospered so readily after the war and why we struggle now.

But let's not forget. You can blather about Sunday store closings and being a country that "honored God." Yet, while all of this was transpiring, blacks were still openly segregated from whites and openly discriminated against. They were even being lynched. While this prosperity and God-honoring was happening, people were being MURDERED for simply teaching a black man how to vote.

Women were still relegated to being housewives and baby-factories; they couldn't even wear PANTS yet. If they worked at all, they were stuck doing a handful of "womanly" jobs -- teaching children, nursing, making clothes, being a telephone operator, and the like. Low-paying, low prestige jobs with little hope of advancement.

And there's more of that ... lots more. Your rosy "god-honoring" era was full of nastiness, bigotry, hatred, and WASP elitism. If that's what our nation has to be like to curry God's favor and earn financial prosperity, well, your God can go *bleep* himself.

I just wish more people -- especially people like you -- knew and understood more about actual history than just the garbage you learn in grade/high school. So much of these misguided notions comes merely from ignorance. If you went to a private Christian or Catholic school, well, who the hell knows what they teach you about history in those places.

I'm sure if you attended some fundamentalist/evangelical school, that's probably what they taught you. That we were prosperous because we forced people to obey the Sabbath whether they were Christian or not (no doubt that your god doesn't mind fascism in his name) and then revoked our prosperity when we stopped brainwashing kids into praying in public school.

Such a tragedy, really.



Hope, Jeff? What about your religion fills me with hope? That I get to spend eternity on my knees as a slave to a vain, petty, vindictive, bloodthirsty, narcissistic, fickle, perpetually angry deity?

Even the most luxurious prison is still a prison and luxurious slavery is still slavery. What's worse -- you can't even hope for death to escape it.

As I said in the past -- just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I can't hope for an afterlife. You're so incredibly and naively wrong about that. I can still believe that life goes on, that this earth is only one stage in our evolution, that death is NOT the end and we go to a better place once our lessons here are learned.

I put my faith in science and technology because there's no reason not to. At least it has been right more times than it's been wrong. And here we sit, watching as all of the predictions made in science come true. The Higgs-Boson particle, gravity waves, and so many more.

What has religion ever offered except the standard prophecies of doom and gloom that never come true? What's worse is that you'll attribute these hurricanes to God instead of global warming as a result of human activity. And THAT means that you're trying to solve the wrong problem with the wrong tools.

Instead of trying to keep this planet healthy, you're off in your church babbling meaningless platitudes to a non-existent being. Perhaps if you praise him enough. Sing to him enough. Wave your arms in the air enough. Beg of him enough. Grovel enough. Maybe ... maybe ... he'll magically protect us from natural disasters and financial crises.

And does it ever work? HAS it ever worked?

No.

The hurricanes keep coming, don't they. And the wildfires. The tornadoes. The quakes.

It reminds me of the great quake that struck Portugal in the late 1700s. Yeah, people in those days had YOUR religious mentality. So when the quake struck, thousands upon thousands of people ran immediately to their churches to pray and mewl their supplications to their deity -- only to die horrible deaths because their churches, made primarily of stone, came crashing down on their heads. Tens of thousands died, and the vast majority of them died in their churchs still with God's words on their lips. How did THAT work out for them, I wonder?

I guess all those atheists who stayed AWAY from church were protected by God, no? Why not? Or are you going to spin these events in your favor as you always do?



Rubbish. I know your beliefs just fine. In fact, I've cornered you SEVERAL times into inadvertantly admitting that you DO, in fact, have a desire for this nation to become a theocratic fascist state.

You even proved that yet again with the post I'm now responding to. For instance, you obviously think forcing everyone regardless of their religion to close their businesses out of respect for YOUR religion's Sabbath. Force everyone to obey the Bible. Never mind that the Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, right?

In fact, that's one of the major reasons why Sunday closing laws were rendered unconstitutional. It interfered with the right of Jews to practice THEIR religion. But who gives a damn about that, right? Not when you're so certain that YOUR way is the only right way, the only moral way, the only way that will get you through the eye of the needle and on past the Pearly Gates.

To hell (literally) with everyone else, to hell with freedom, to hell with rights, to hell with civil liberties, to hell with all of those false religions, to hell with allowing people to make their own choices.

Do as I say ... do as my god says ... do as my holy book says. It's no better than marching down the street in jackboots and armbands, if you take my meaning. And don't think for a nanosecond we aren't heading in precisely that direction given that no less than 3 GOP presidential candidates have openly rubbed elbows and gave speeches at rallies held by Christians who literally want to slaughter every homosexual in the nation. That's called a Holocaust, Jeff ... so those jackboots and armbands aren't all that far away from your type of Christianity.

So don't tell me I don't understand it. I do ... all too well. I've spent 20 years studying the rise and fall of the Third Reich, and I'm here to tell you ... fundamentalist religion, regardless of the god, isn't much different.

At all.



Actions speak louder than words, Jeff.

In fact, I had to pack up and leave all of my friends behind because North Carolina refused to expand their Medicaid program for people who were so broke we couldn't afford health insurance even with the Obamacare subsidies. People like myself who are disabled and in the middle of the long 4 or 5 year fight to obtain Disability were left out in the cold. All of the more secular northern states expanded their coverage, but all of those Christians in the south did NOT expand it -- and this was literally a life or death decision for many Americans living in southern states.

I was very lucky ... I had a place in Pennsylvania where I could move to. A lot of people in the south didn't have that convenience. And I'm here to tell you straight up: The seriousness of my condition had worsened to such an extent that I needed real pain medications. But without insurance, I couldn't go to a pain management clinic. No. The only treatment I could receive was in church basement clinics that have no resources, no money, and no equipment to be of much help at all. And these kinds of free clinics won't prescribe opiates.

IF I had not been able to move back to the SECULAR north where they actually give a damn about people like me, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I would have put a bullet in my brain years ago. The pain and misery would have been too much to bear.

This stuff MATTERS, Jeff. These issues aren't just academic problems to be wrangled over on a forum. And when I see every single Bible Belt state essentially giving the middle finger to those of us in genuine need, well, what am I SUPPOSED to think? What opinion SHOULD I have of the obviously majority opinion of southern Americans?

Sure, I know that not every single southerner thinks this way ... but enough of them do to keep every Bible Belt state voting for right-wing ultra-conservatives. And their irrational and excessive hatred of Obama was so flagrantly a result of racism that they all may as well have had white hoods over their heads whenever they talked about the man.

And here we are, yet again, as I've said before in an earlier post -- in Alabama, the frontrunner for one of that state's senators is a total loon who appeared on stage dressed like a cowboy and waving a gun around. He's the guy who thinks the First Amendment should only apply to Christians; that homosexuals, ALL of them, should be outright butchered. He's the kind of Christian who blames natural disasters and acts of terrorism on people he doesn't like, scapegoating those people, stirring the pot, poisoning the well, and spewing hatred, division, bigotry, and vitriol without a single ounce of shame whatsoever. And Moore is almost certain to win -- even Trump endorsing the OTHER Republican candidate couldn't convince Alabama citizens to not vote for a member of the Christian version of ISIS.

Now, how am I supposed to feel about millions of Alabamans? Alabamians? Alabamers? unabashedly ushering in a rotten era of fascism where everyone but white conservative fundamentalist Republicans will be treated like second and third class citizens -- and with the case of gays, be treated like they're not even human much less a citizen of anything. You tell me! How am I supposed to feel?

Oh, I'm sure that, individually, those southerners I'm referring to are just the nicest people you'd ever want to meet, but get them together in some church tent revival and they'll be laying down the barbed wire fencing and firing up the crematoriums before the preacher can even squeeze in an "amen."

I used to get angry at the politicians themselves for their backward worldviews -- I'd ask myself why it was that society didn't seem to be evolving toward something better, something greater, why are we reversing course toward a pathway of repeating one of the darkest times in human history.

But then I realized that it wasn't the politicians I should feel anger towards but rather the people who voted for them. It's one thing when a politician betrays the people's trust by running amok once in office, but that's just not the case anymore. The people of Alabama know EXACTLY what Mr. Moore stands for, they know EXACTLY the kind of fascistic, bigoted pig he is ... and still they're flocking around the man.

And if that weren't bad enough, THIS can't even be blamed on partisan politics -- a staunchly Republican state simply voting for the Republican candidate no matter who he is. Nope. Because they're choosing Mr. Moore over Mr. Strange who is ALSO a Republican. Which means they are knowingly, willfully, and deliberately rallying around a man with some of the most heinous, puke-inducing, Nazi-like values I've ever seen coming out of the mouth of a major political figure.



If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... ya know?

And once again you demonstrate why I find your attitude so frustrating, why I will continue to say that religion robs people of their objectivity and renders them almost incapable of putting together a coherent thought.

Because you can't ever admit to me -- and perhaps even to yourself -- that a person like Mr. Moore in Alabama, a person who literally endorses an American holocaust against gays (and you know it wouldn't stop with gays once the fires in the ovens are lit) is wrong on many levels, especially in regards to morality (never even mind if Mr. Moore's values represent what America was supposed to be about). You refuse utterly to admit that non-Christians should have the same rights under the Constitution as Christians. That it's wrong to scapegoat innocent groups of people for disasters and terrorism thereby fostering a climate of hatred, mistrust, and just plain rotten behavior. That and much, much more you simply cannot admit.

And THAT is precisely how democracy dies, freedom erodes, and societies fall upon themselves like wolves eating their own. Christianity is always talking about love and forgiveness ... and then a fundamentalist walks into the room.

I had said that I wouldn't post here as Orion Rules claims it is only for Christians. But I must post to not only say how thoughtful, eligent and informitive this post is but also how sad that you had to move due to the lack of medical coverage you could obtain in your previous state. This is inconceivable to me. Love and empathy must be missing from so many that do have power over your life.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by mordant

I just want to say, S., that as a lover of history, I enjoy that I nearly always learn something from your posts in this regard. Quite aside from the merciless deconstruction of specious claims where appropriate.

I agree. I wonder if she will point out that the Romean Empire 'collapsed" pretty much as soon as it adopted Christianity as the state religion. For Jeff to suggest that it collapsed because it opposed Christianity is to perform a massive bit of mental gymnastics or ratyher, the very familiar act of fiddling the facts to fit the belief.

And I can't help it - I just have to post the review or explanation of the Fim that should be the adopted Iconic tragedy for atheism as Life of Brian is the Iconic comedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwUwjkEveBE

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Rubbish. I know your beliefs just fine. In fact, I've cornered you SEVERAL times into inadvertantly admitting that you DO, in fact, have a desire for this nation to become a theocratic fascist state.

Seeing as you can't even grasp the basic concept of why the OT covenant laws do not apply anymore, I say you are ignorant about my faith. You don't have a clue what is really going on out there.

Originally Posted by Shirina

You even proved that yet again with the post I'm now responding to. For instance, you obviously think forcing everyone regardless of their religion to close their businesses out of respect for YOUR religion's Sabbath. Force everyone to obey the Bible. Never mind that the Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, right?

In fact, that's one of the major reasons why Sunday closing laws were rendered unconstitutional. It interfered with the right of Jews to practice THEIR religion. But who gives a damn about that, right? Not when you're so certain that YOUR way is the only right way, the only moral way, the only way that will get you through the eye of the needle and on past the Pearly Gates.

To hell (literally) with everyone else, to hell with freedom, to hell with rights, to hell with civil liberties, to hell with all of those false religions, to hell with allowing people to make their own choices.

Do as I say ... do as my god says ... do as my holy book says. It's no better than marching down the street in jackboots and armbands, if you take my meaning. And don't think for a nanosecond we aren't heading in precisely that direction given that no less than 3 GOP presidential candidates have openly rubbed elbows and gave speeches at rallies held by Christians who literally want to slaughter every homosexual in the nation. That's called a Holocaust, Jeff ... so those jackboots and armbands aren't all that far away from your type of Christianity.

So don't tell me I don't understand it. I do ... all too well. I've spent 20 years studying the rise and fall of the Third Reich, and I'm here to tell you ... fundamentalist religion, regardless of the god, isn't much different.

At all.

As usual, you gloss over the truth and if one picked over the bones and details then they would find a completely different picture than the one you paint here. OTOH, the sad irony is that your side has absolutely no problem FORCING Christians to embrace immoral lifestyles or be punished. We are constantly being told that we can't pray in public, quote a verse, have a Bible, or even give a word of spiritual encouragement if you are even remotely associated with anything in the public square. The only thing that can be promoted is non-religion and secular beliefs. That's the exact kind of intolerance and Nazi like toleration speech you rant against. Faith is an important part of our culture and it brings communities together. Yet your side wants to tear it down.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Actions speak louder than words, Jeff.

In fact, I had to pack up and leave all of my friends behind because North Carolina refused to expand their Medicaid program for people who were so broke we couldn't afford health insurance even with the Obamacare subsidies. People like myself who are disabled and in the middle of the long 4 or 5 year fight to obtain Disability were left out in the cold. All of the more secular northern states expanded their coverage, but all of those Christians in the south did NOT expand it -- and this was literally a life or death decision for many Americans living in southern states.

I was very lucky ... I had a place in Pennsylvania where I could move to. A lot of people in the south didn't have that convenience. And I'm here to tell you straight up: The seriousness of my condition had worsened to such an extent that I needed real pain medications. But without insurance, I couldn't go to a pain management clinic. No. The only treatment I could receive was in church basement clinics that have no resources, no money, and no equipment to be of much help at all. And these kinds of free clinics won't prescribe opiates.

IF I had not been able to move back to the SECULAR north where they actually give a damn about people like me, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I would have put a bullet in my brain years ago. The pain and misery would have been too much to bear.

This stuff MATTERS, Jeff. These issues aren't just academic problems to be wrangled over on a forum. And when I see every single Bible Belt state essentially giving the middle finger to those of us in genuine need, well, what am I SUPPOSED to think? What opinion SHOULD I have of the obviously majority opinion of southern Americans?

Sure, I know that not every single southerner thinks this way ... but enough of them do to keep every Bible Belt state voting for right-wing ultra-conservatives. And their irrational and excessive hatred of Obama was so flagrantly a result of racism that they all may as well have had white hoods over their heads whenever they talked about the man.

Did you ever think to research or at least listen to the other side of the argument? Try to gain some understanding why Southern states would oppose it? But your side never does. Much easier to just white noise us out and slap, brand and label us as uncaring cold hearted bigots that don't want to help the needy. Well that's a load of crap. You need to get out of the fantasyland that the government just has this endless well of money. Many of the states oppose the Medicaid expansion because it would take funds away from other vital services. And when there is no money, the states only have one choice. Raise taxes. States in the south struggle with high poverty rates versus the north. Ever considered that factor?
I even have above average insurance and still feel the finanical strain because insurance sucks these days.
I had to make the hard decision to just gut it out and not go to an urgent care last night because the copay was a ridiculous $100. And I didn't need that burden added to the already $500 I owe for my colonoscopy which is on top of the hundreds of others I owe for previous visits. If I'm feeling the financial strain then I can't imagine how hard it is for families who make a lot less than me. So excuse the Southerners for not being so eager to have more of their paycheck carved up.

Originally Posted by Shirina

And here we are, yet again, as I've said before in an earlier post -- in Alabama, the frontrunner for one of that state's senators is a total loon who appeared on stage dressed like a cowboy and waving a gun around. He's the guy who thinks the First Amendment should only apply to Christians; that homosexuals, ALL of them, should be outright butchered. He's the kind of Christian who blames natural disasters and acts of terrorism on people he doesn't like, scapegoating those people, stirring the pot, poisoning the well, and spewing hatred, division, bigotry, and vitriol without a single ounce of shame whatsoever. And Moore is almost certain to win -- even Trump endorsing the OTHER Republican candidate couldn't convince Alabama citizens to not vote for a member of the Christian version of ISIS.

Now, how am I supposed to feel about millions of Alabamans? Alabamians? Alabamers? unabashedly ushering in a rotten era of fascism where everyone but white conservative fundamentalist Republicans will be treated like second and third class citizens -- and with the case of gays, be treated like they're not even human much less a citizen of anything. You tell me! How am I supposed to feel?

Typical grandstanding. The ONLY research atheists are so passionately defensive of gays is because it is an easy way to scapegoat Christians. You never heard a peep from your side raising the rainbow flag in earlier decades wher most Americans were not brainwashed and saw it as an immoral and dangerous lifestyle (yea let's just pretend homosexuality has nothing to do with HIV).

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Seeing as you can't even grasp the basic concept of why the OT covenant laws do not apply anymore, I say you are ignorant about my faith. You don't have a clue what is really going on out there.



...

So the Bible is not the word of God. Thank you for that admission.

[Jobster]

It's really hard for me to have respect for some atheists. You remind me the guy that comes into a jail or a prison talking about how gangster he is and then the next day, you see em with their shirt tied up in a bow, some kool-aid on their lips, and their hand in another man's pocket.

Why? Because it turns out, that the man was fake gangster. He wasn't real.

A real gangster will sniff you out. And that's what happened.

So, you wanna feel enlightened and you wanna kill off the Shepard cuz ya still got faith that the sheep dogs are gonna protect ya. Well, they ain't, cuz a wolf is nothin but a dog at the end of the day. And without the Shepard a sheep dog is just gonna revert into its true nature.

So, please by all means, get rid of the one religion that tells people to turn the other cheek and give up everything they have. Please get rid of the religion that praises the poor.

Let's get them REAL atheists in power. I'm sure they really care about you and your problems. Because you know what the real problem is, overpopulation.

How ya deal with that?

Well, ya see there is something called automation. It's here and its coming and what happens then? Well, uh...that house you think you own, da bank is gonna take it back cuz uh, you ain't gotta job. Ya know, 30 years is a long time.

Mean prediction for technological singularity - 2040. You do the math.

It won't take that long before the majority of jobs are lost. So all you "atheists," ya better get prepared for some REAL atheists, cuz they comin. Ya got your wish.

[hljc]

Look at Syria and Iraq they kicked out Christianity and became a train wreak , as a cycle of death rule these nation with a curse ..... America kicks out Christianity and God will remove His hand of provision on the nation or any other nation which pushes Him out completely ....

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Seeing as you can't even grasp the basic concept of why the OT covenant laws do not apply anymore, I say you are ignorant about my faith. You don't have a clue what is really going on out there.

I'll pinch -hit for Shirina. She can tell me to keep my nose out if it if she wants to take you on.

I think YOU can't grasp what is really going on, not so much 'out there' but in the Bible, and at the time it was updated to suit Gentile converts. I say it is what you have been taught to believe that prevents you from ever understanding what is really going on.

As usual, you gloss over the truth and if one picked over the bones and details then they would find a completely different picture than the one you paint here. OTOH, the sad irony is that your side has absolutely no problem FORCING Christians to embrace immoral lifestyles or be punished. We are constantly being told that we can't pray in public, quote a verse, have a Bible, or even give a word of spiritual encouragement if you are even remotely associated with anything in the public square. The only thing that can be promoted is non-religion and secular beliefs. That's the exact kind of intolerance and Nazi like toleration speech you rant against. Faith is an important part of our culture and it brings communities together. Yet your side wants to tear it down.

Thanks for giving us a good laugh - or a groan as at a joke that we've heard a bit too often. Preventing you from forcing your religious views on others means that somehow we are persecuting you. And the business of keeping public displays of any particular religion off the streets is because either all religions (and now none (1) or none. The idea of public expression of religion is not what it is about - it is about the public display of Christianity as "This is a Christian nation". It is about the privileged position of Christianity. And protestant Christianity, too.

The amount of religion bombarding the American public is out of all proportion to the voices of reason. The absurd idea that you are being persecuted because you are not allowed to roll back rights of others to accord with your reactionary beliefs, or that you are being gagged, because reason and evidence is winning the debate, is not going to fool anyone.

Did you ever think to research or at least listen to the other side of the argument? Try to gain some understanding why Southern states would oppose it? But your side never does. Much easier to just white noise us out and slap, brand and label us as uncaring cold hearted bigots that don't want to help the needy. Well that's a load of crap. You need to get out of the fantasyland that the government just has this endless well of money. Many of the states oppose the Medicaid expansion because it would take funds away from other vital services. And when there is no money, the states only have one choice. Raise taxes. States in the south struggle with high poverty rates versus the north. Ever considered that factor?
I even have above average insurance and still feel the finanical strain because insurance sucks these days.
I had to make the hard decision to just gut it out and not go to an urgent care last night because the copay was a ridiculous $100. And I didn't need that burden added to the already $500 I owe for my colonoscopy which is on top of the hundreds of others I owe for previous visits. If I'm feeling the financial strain then I can't imagine how hard it is for families who make a lot less than me. So excuse the Southerners for not being so eager to have more of their paycheck carved up.

So, wouldn't you like some financial assistance? Especially if what it cost you topped what you had coming in? Ok, so you are on the ground there and I'm not. But the Confederacy never seems to be short of a bob or two wne it comes to funding a religious white elephant like Ham's ark. Doesn't the poor Biblebelt family unable to afford the increased liposuction to enable them to get out the door deserve a bit of financial top up from the dollar -heavy Northerneners, crammed with wealth siphoned out of the South for the last century? (When you live in Wales, you learn the rhetoric)? Does a bit of Obama care coming in sound a bit better than Obamatax coming out?

Typical grandstanding. The ONLY research atheists are so passionately defensive of gays is because it is an easy way to scapegoat Christians. You never heard a peep from your side raising the rainbow flag in earlier decades when most Americans were not brainwashed and saw it as an immoral and dangerous lifestyle (yea let's just pretend homosexuality has nothing to do with HIV).

Back in those day, the atheism movement didn't even exist. From what I can recall, we were speaking out for gay rights right at the beginning, but against the government that made it a crime. It wasn't so much of a Fundamentalist battle line, but I had my debates (and won them ) both in Atheist Forums an in the Works Union discussion about whether to call on the government to stop gays losing their job if they were found out. And they did stop it, decriminalize Same sex, and it even became quite a cause. And atheists were in support (such as we had) all the way.

And I hear you on HIV, and other STD and all the other diseases to do with sex. And I say that trying to solve it by criminalization, suppression, appeals to celibacy and denial is not the answer. Never has been.

And Christianity of a certain kind fought it all the way to the church door. But it is going to lose, Jeff. You can bet you bile -bag on that.
(1) equal rites of the Non -religious to the religious was a landmark ruling often overlooked.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Jobster

It's really hard for me to have respect for some atheists. You remind me the guy that comes into a jail or a prison talking about how gangster he is and then the next day, you see em with their shirt tied up in a bow, some kool-aid on their lips, and their hand in another man's pocket.

Why? Because it turns out, that the man was fake gangster. He wasn't real.

A real gangster will sniff you out. And that's what happened.

So, you wanna feel enlightened and you wanna kill off the Shepard cuz ya still got faith that the sheep dogs are gonna protect ya. Well, they ain't, cuz a wolf is nothin but a dog at the end of the day. And without the Shepard a sheep dog is just gonna revert into its true nature.

So, please by all means, get rid of the one religion that tells people to turn the other cheek and give up everything they have. Please get rid of the religion that praises the poor.

Let's get them REAL atheists in power. I'm sure they really care about you and your problems. Because you know what the real problem is, overpopulation.

How ya deal with that?

Well, ya see there is something called automation. It's here and its coming and what happens then? Well, uh...that house you think you own, da bank is gonna take it back cuz uh, you ain't gotta job. Ya know, 30 years is a long time.

Mean prediction for technological singularity - 2040. You do the math.

It won't take that long before the majority of jobs are lost. So all you "atheists," ya better get prepared for some REAL atheists, cuz they comin. Ya got your wish.

First of all, why do you think I/we care if you respect our beliefs. I could care less.

As for the rest of your post...rambling rose. Gangsters. Sheep dogs. Automation.

[Jobster]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

First of all, why do you think I/we care if you respect our beliefs. I could care less.

As for the rest of your post...rambling rose. Gangsters. Sheep dogs. Automation.

I'm trying to help you.

You know what definitely won't believe in God? AI. Unless more sophisticated methods are currently available or perhaps available at a future date, currently machine learning is predicated off of statistical data. With enough data, anomalies could be discovered in existing material that could eventually lead to new discoveries and potentially open doors for more discoveries. That is the idea, anyway.

The problem is, and perhaps I am a pessimist in this regard, is that AI will either believe it to be God at least by one definition, and I wager that it also won't find the importance in finding natural solutions since it was not created by nature. So perhaps, there will be a choice at some point for those with the means to make this choice to abandon humanity and instead accept an alternate reality.

But prior to this event, I imagine that things will occur for multiple reasons, including individual economic viability, which will be increasingly limited in the future due to the replacement of human capital with technology. An unruly and unemployable populous might do desperate things in order to get the attention of those who control the resources. This could lead to over reliance on AI, resulting in making choices we were not prepared to make.

There is an alternative. Change immediately. If you want guidance, I have no better suggestion than the words of Christ. That's my piece.

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by Jobster

I'm trying to help you.

I don't thing he's looking for any help from you. Nor are any other folks who don't ascribe to religion.

Originally Posted by Jobster

If you want guidance, I have no better suggestion than the words of Christ. That's my piece.

Originally Posted by Jobster

That foundation is made very simple and clear through the words of Christ.

Originally Posted by Jobster

It's simple, follow his words and no harm will be done.

Originally Posted by Jobster

... but I know that greed is not possible if one follows the words of Christ, so what better system for foundational development is there than that set of rules?

Can you stop proselytizing in this thread?

This thread is not a soapbox for you to proselytize. In fact it's the opposite...it's about the US seeing a decline in religion followers; particularly fundamentalists.