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Don't worry about it, seriously. I have a pretty good sense for when a person is trying to be malicious, and I seldom get that vibe from you. I suppose I am guilty of doing what I underlined in your quoted post. I'm genuinely working on that and, as hard as it may be for people to believe, I have actually improved over the years. And again (for the gazillionth time), I do not find it upsetting when people question my religion's beginnings or its history. I don't object to their asking questions like the ones you asked in this post. Honestly, if people want to think it's a hoax, that's really not something that bothers me a great deal. I do genuinely appreciate civility and even though sarcasm is a much easier approach, no one likes to be ridiculed. Anybody who says that doesn't bother them isn't being honest. The only thing that really sets me off is when people make statements about our history, beliefs, or culture that are categorically false, and not just a matter of opinion. When I correct these statements time and time again, and it never seems to do any good, I guess I've just gotten into the habit of keeping the guns drawn.
Well said Katz, and it may serve the forums well if folks could separate any potential fantastical tale or set of events that may lead to a belief set from the belief itself. All too often they are combined, or one draws the second in tying it to the first. Atheists could argue it can be impossible to address one without the other, but they can be taken a la carte.
So saying "This experience/tale/component that is accepted by followers seems a little nuts!"
Is quite different from saying...
"The followers and practitioners of this Religion are nuts!" Or "The Religion is nuts!"
Still, I think those are the guidelines set up for this forum. So, split the hairs and a post should be able to stand without moderation.
It's not worth it for me ... since I never had to do that before now. It's not as though I'm a new poster.
Anyhow, when I was in college, I ended up abandoning a class I should've passed without a second's thought.
I failed it because the professor graded his papers the same way - it wasn't splitting hairs. It was disecting hairs. And you never knew which hair to pick, either.
For instance, I wrote, "President Truman commented ..." and he crossed out the word "commented" and inserted "stated."
Or ...
When I wrote, "When Russia invaded Germany late in the war ..." he crossed out "Russia" and replaced it with "Red Army."
The words were so close in meaning and intent that I could make a career writing just one paper, sitting there agonizing over which word to use, buried behind a stack of thesauruses hoping that I picked the right synonym.
It's too much like walking through a minefield.
I don't mindlessly bash anything or call names just for kicks and giggles - everything I say is usually backed up with a lengthy justification. But that's not enough now. Worse still, I have to be responsible for those people who cannot separate themselves from their religion. Except a religion is not an ethnicity. It's not a race. It's not a nationality. It's not a gender. It's not a sexual identification. Religion is a concept, an idea, a belief. If we have to dance around that, too, then we're just putting religion back up on its unassailable pedestal where it cannot be criticized, mocked, blamed, or anything else. In truth, it means that we cannot lodge any negative accusation against religion except those accusations the believers allow. Otherwise, they get to whip out a persecution card from their infinite deck and we're the ones who have to back down.
Well said Katz, and it may serve the forums well if folks could separate any potential fantastical tale or set of events that may lead to a belief set from the belief itself. All too often they are combined, or one draws the second in tying it to the first. Atheists could argue it can be impossible to address one without the other, but they can be taken a la carte.
So saying "This experience/tale/component that is accepted by followers seems a little nuts!"
Is quite different from saying...
"The followers and practitioners of this Religion are nuts!" Or "The Religion is nuts!"
Thank you. I'm still not sure I've made myself clear, though. I'll try to explain with a few examples.
Okay, these first three statements are true. They might seem completely outlandish to someone who doesn't believe them, but if someone makes one of these claims about Mormonism, I won't tell them they're wrong:
1. Mormons believe that God the Father has a physical form that we could describe as human in appearance.
2. Mormons believe that we all lived in spirit form with God prior to being born to mortal parents and actually chose to experience mortality.
3. Mormons believe that a small group of Israelites migrated to the American continent in about 600 B.C.
These next three statements are common misconceptions, and I've lost track of the number of times I've corrected people who genuinely believe they know what they're talking about. Still, I have no trouble calmly and patiently explaining how and why they are incorrect:
4. Mormons are taught to shun anyone who leaves the faith.
5. Mormons don't believe they need a Savior; they believe they can work their way into heaven.
6. Mormons perform posthumous baptisms in an attempt to force everyone who has ever lived to convert to their religion.
These last three statements are malicious and and blatantly false. People who make statements like these are deliberately trying to ridicule and misrepresent Mormonism. They have no desire to get their facts right. And when I read one of these statements, I get riled pretty quickly:
7. Mormons believe that God is a space alien from the planet Kolob.
8. Mormons believe their underwear is magic.
9. Mormons practice secret satanic rituals in their temples, which is why no outsiders are allowed inside as witnesses.
These last three statements are malicious and and blatantly false. People who make statements like these are deliberately trying to ridicule and misrepresent Mormonism. They have no desire to get their facts right. And when I read one of these statements, I get riled pretty quickly:
7. Mormons believe that God is a space alien from the planet Kolob.
8. Mormons believe their underwear is magic.
9. Mormons practice secret satanic rituals in their temples, which is why no outsiders are allowed inside as witnesses.
That is ... BULL!
Well yeah, statement 9 is rather malicious. But, gee, I didn't say that now, did I.
The operative word here is "deliberately."
Is that what you REALLY think I did?
Tell me, Kazpur. How often in the time I've been here did I go after Mormonism? Hmm?
Quote:
Kolob is a star or planet described in the sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement. Reference to Kolob is found in the Book of Abraham, a work that is traditionally held by several Latter Day Saint denominations as having been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. According to this work, Kolob is the heavenly body nearest to the throne of God. While the Book of Abraham refers to Kolob as a "star",[1] it also refers to planets as "stars",[2] and, therefore, some Mormon commentators consider Kolob to be a planet.[3] The body also appears in Mormon culture, including a reference to Kolob in an LDS hymn.[4]
Quote:
A temple garment, also referred to as garments, the garment of the holy priesthood,[2][3][4] or Mormon underwear,[5] is a type of underwear worn by adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement after they have taken part in the endowment ceremony. Garments are worn both day and night and are required for any adult who previously participated in the endowment ceremony to enter a temple.[6] The undergarments are viewed as a symbolic reminder of the covenants made in temple ceremonies and are seen as a symbolic and/or literal source of protection from the evils of the world.[7]
That's what I read. Perod. You act as though the only reason why I wrote what I did was to offend - and offend YOU.
I regret even learning the English language because you can't say half the words because SOMEONE will find it a) profane, b) offensive, c) racist, d) sexist, e) anti-whatever, f) pejorative, g) insulting, h) .... need I go on?
But if you think for one damn second I was seriously trying to deliberately offend, you're off your rocker.
Well yeah, statement 9 is rather malicious. But, gee, I didn't say that now, did I.
The operative word here is "deliberately."
Is that what you REALLY think I did?
Tell me, Kazpur. How often in the time I've been here did I go after Mormonism? Hmm?
That's what I read. Perod. You act as though the only reason why I wrote what I did was to offend - and offend YOU.
I regret even learning the English language because you can't say half the words because SOMEONE will find it a) profane, b) offensive, c) racist, d) sexist, e) anti-whatever, f) pejorative, g) insulting, h) .... need I go on?
But if you think for one damn second I was seriously trying to deliberately offend, you're off your rocker.
It was a general post, not relating to you specifically, Shirina. I was responding to ShouldIStayPut and was providing examples to help make a point. You just got through saying, "No doubt you've heard jokes about magic underwear and Kolob a thousand times." You're right. I have, which is why I mentioned them. You're not the only one who has ever said things like that. Plus, I included one statement you haven't ever made, but which other people have. You seriously need to get a grip. I have never in my life seen someone become so unhinged over something so trivial as my first post to you. By the way, your status says, "Gone." Better change it back to whatever it was before, since you evidently are still very much with us.
You know, Shirina, last night as I was getting into bed, the thought crossed my mind -- Maybe I should just extend Shirina an olive branch and ask her if she would like to just start over, particularly since the two of us don't exactly have a long, ugly history. At this point, I'm still even inclined to do that, simply because I still see this whole incident as an unfortunate blip on our otherwise pretty stable radar. I just don't know what to think at this point.
Alright ...
I was about to write a scathing little post that probably wouldn've gotten be banned - because I'm really past the point of caring. Oh, not because of you, per se, though this silly fight isn't helping matters any.
But I erased it because I hadn't read this far down yet. Most of the time, I don't read the whole post before I start responding.
As you said - we don't have a long and ugly history and I really don't give Mormonism much thought. Not in a bad way. I just don't give it much thought because it's not a religion I see to be a threat nor have I heard of Mormons doing anything particularly bad. So it's actually pretty good that I don't give Mormons a lot of thought. It's when I think about a religion - that's when you have to worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Well, something tells me that we're never going to agree on that. But just to clarify, I specifically said you were uneducated on Mormonism. Nowhere have I ever implied that you are uneducated generally speaking.
No, I don't know heaping helpings of Mormon doctrine or belief. After all you can't be an expert in every religion - especially if you've never been a part of it. I know no one things temple garments are actually "magical" but I don't know where this Kolob thing came from. I actually had to look it up because I couldn't remember the name of it. But it seemed like a belief to me. If not, then I stand corrected.
[quote=Katzpur;54798518]Spelling your name incorrectly was a typo, Shirina. Would you like me to point out the number of times you misspelled "Katzpur" as "Katspur"?
I was just giving you a hard time. You did spell my name like Sharia Law, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Shirina, I'm sorry that my comment saying that you were uneducated on Mormonism offended you to the point it did.
I apologize for saying things about Mormonism that you find offensive. I honestly wasn't trying to offend you - and don't take this the wrong way - but since I don't have a lot of interaction with you and because I had been gone for several months, I had forgotten about you being here. Even so, I wouldn't have remembered that you were a Mormon - I didn't even know there were any on this site.
I take two dozen medications every day - and they can make my mind loopy and horribly forgetful so I just cannot keep track of everyone and what religion they subscribe to. I forget things the moment I put things down - which is annoying because then I have to traipse back through the house to get it. And all that walking on a bad day hurts. Anyway, it's easy for me to forget or lose track of people.
My typing is lousy, too .. I'll omit entire words, forget how to spell simple words, and lose my train of thought every couple of seconds - at least on certain days. If it wasn't for spell checks and diligent proofreading, most of my posts would be incomprehensible in their raw form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
We're all educated on some things and uneducated on others.
True enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I'm not sorry I told you that I found your sarcasm to be mean. There is, by the way, a rule pertaining to that, too. It says, "Sarcasm will be tolerated so long as it does not cross the line into overt rudeness. The moderators appreciate a sense of humor, and for more subtle sarcastic posts, or for sarcasm in general, perhaps the insertion of the emoticon would prove helpful and alert those reading the post of it's intent."
I know I can be mean sometimes. It comes from how I grew up. I also spent a lot of time carousing the jungles of unmoderated forums where I've been threatened with rape, murder, been called every racial slur imaginable, and so on. Once I actually had a stalker from a forum who flew all the way to the US from Austria who kept calling me and claiming he was right outside - which he was, in fact. So even when the threats aren't overly serious, that incident made me realize they could be.
Anyway - I'm still to this day edgy and a wee bit paranoid on forums and I tend to make sure no one trifles with me from the get go. It's a safety mechanism. Not that I think you're a danger to me, or anyone else here, for that matter, but ... you know ... it's not something one breaks easily. So yeah, I can be downright cruel sometimes. I tried to dial it down some lately but ... meh, those fascist types really get under my skin. Oh yeah, and the 3 days with almost no sleep doesn't help either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
If you didn't mean to offend, perhaps you could have toned down the sarcasm.
No, it wasn't my intention to offend - honestly I didn't even think anyone would pay much attention to what I wrote. I was just ... annoyed. But yes, I will tone down the sarcasm. At least for interactions I have with you or dealings with Mormonism. In fact, I won't be sarcastic at all. But with the fundevanglists, though ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Regardless of how many times people make the same insensitive jokes about my beliefs, it still hurts. If I knew that I'd hurt someone by an inadvertent comment that was actually intended to be funny (not just funny to me, but funny to them, too), I'd apologize. I wouldn't make matters worse by declaring war against them.
That's usually one of my rules regarding posting on forums, as well - if someone is genuinely offended, I stop giving offense - and again, it wasn't a purposeful thing. I usually don't care what Mormons do or what they believe since they don't bother me. And if it wasn't for being asked by name about the golden plates, I wouldn't have said anything at all. (And no, Imissthe90s, I'm not blaming you for asking so don't worry about it!).
So hopefully we can just exchange the proverbial olive branch and put all this hostility behind us.
It was a general post, not relating to you specifically, Shirina. I was responding to ShouldIStayPut and was providing examples to help make a point. You just got through saying, "No doubt you've heard jokes about magic underwear and Kolob a thousand times." You're right. I have, which is why I mentioned them. You're not the only one who has ever said things like that. Plus, I included one statement you haven't ever made, but which other people have. You seriously need to get a grip. I have never in my life seen someone become so unhinged over something so trivial as my first post to you. By the way, your status says, "Gone." Better change it back to whatever it was before.
Well, hopefully we can make peace from this little fracas .... as for my status. Meh.
I still don't really know if I'm staying. I made the decision even before we started fighting.
It's funny how even a little piece of cyberspace can feel like a second home if you spend enough time there, get to know the people you participate with.
But I'm not sure it feels that way for me anymore. Ya know? I just can't explain it.
That's why I'm giving myself to the end of the week. If I still feel meh, well ...
Some people are telling me it's a mistake to leave since it's an outlet for me; "you'll regret it!" they say.
Since this thread has obviously taken a turn and has turned into a discussion of LDS doctrine, I'll just say this and let it go. I hope my post doesn't get deleted as an attempt to hijack the thread, since I've been doing my level best not to do that.
Here's what we believe about Kolob: There is a God. He resides in Heaven, though His spirit can be felt throughout the universe. Heaven is a real place. There are stars in the sky and one of them is closer to where God is than the rest. That star has a name by which God refers to it in one book of LDS scripture. The name of that star is Kolob. I realize that most of the world's Christians believe that God doesn't actually reside anywhere, but instead fills the universe. That, unfortunately is not what the Bible says. The Bible consistently refers to God as being "in Heaven" and Mormon doctrine is consistent with that. Nobody "hangs out" on Kolob, and truth be known, it is one of the most insignificant things in LDS doctrine. You could attend LDS worship services every week for thirty years and never even hear Kolob mentioned in passing. It is not central to our theology in the slighest.
Here's some information on temple garments: Throughout history, people of various religions have worn sacred clothing that is both special and meaningful to them alone. Often times, this clothing may be visible to others, because it is worn on top of other clothing. Examples of such sacred clothing are beads, shawls, and special head-coverings. In other situations, this special clothing may be worn under one’s outer clothing, next to the skin. The Jewish tallit katan, for example, is a white garment worn under the clothing in remembrance of the Lord’s commandments (see Exodus 19:6, Numbers 15:38 and Deuteronomy 22:12).
Adult members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encouraged to live in such a manner that they may be worthy of the privilege of attending one of the Church’s 162 operating temples worldwide, and participating in sacred ordinances (i.e. religious ceremonies) there. Among these ordinances are a symbolic washing and anointing and an endowment ceremony which involves both instruction and the making of sacred covenants, or promises, with God. Once an individual has received these ordinances, he is to wear a special undergarment throughout his life. The purpose of this garment is to serve as a constant reminder of the covenants made in the temple, a little bit like a wedding ring is a reminder of the promises made to one’s spouse as part of his wedding vows. Any "protection" that can be attributed to the garment is solely spiritual.
You seriously need to get a grip. I have never in my life seen someone become so unhinged over something so trivial as my first post to you.
Oh, just one thing to clarify:
My writing style - at least on forums - is rather, shall we say, animated.
It's just the way I do things. Plus people seem to find it more entertaining.
A lot of people, especially opponents and enemies, like to sieze upon my writing style and claim all sorts of things like how I'm angry, having a meltdown, throwing a fit, etc ... and they think I'm actually going nuts or something.
In reality, though, I'm pretty calm. I know I can't prove it but I never really cared to. So while it may seem that I'm losing my grip or becoming unhinged - I'm not. I just write that way.
Most of my posts are like that. Otherwise they'd read like a thesis paper. Boring.
There's no way I could write the posts I do and write without some humor, sarcasm, and lots of animation.
Sort of.
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But just to clarify, I specifically said you were uneducated on Mormonism. Nowhere have I ever implied that you are uneducated generally speaking.
