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^OK, Shirina, I don't argue with anything you said up there...but since you quoted my post...
I was merely pointing out the subset of liberal Christians who DO speak up against social injustice because of their beliefs.
How do you think gay people are getting married in churches in droves if the people in the churches themselves didn't speak up? The national Episcopal church gave up a million-dollar deposit on principle some years ago on their planned conference venue when it turned out the place practiced discrimination and racism against black people, both in employment and their clients. Other churches are giving sanctuary or providing legal services to illegal immigrants.
As mentioned already, there were Christians at Standing Rock because of their beliefs. There are ALWAYS Christians sending letters to Congress, calling representatives, sometimes marching, in support of "liberal" issues.
I get that we aren't the majority, but pretending we don't exist isn't OK, either. It's sad enough that the conservative Christians dislike us, but it seems hypocritical for non-theists to dismiss people who are of like mind regarding social issues just because they ARE theists.
It’s mostly just symbolism. Wealth inequality and racism are still with us.
Results are what matter. Symbolism is for politicians and people who want to feel morally superior without actually doing anything.
This may be one of the few times that we can agree about something. No matter what happens, some people will always believe their myths and fairy tales are real. Just like the people that believe the moon landings were faked, no amount of evidence will ever change their minds.
Yes and no.
There will always be people who afford belief to the unsubstantiated, but I do not think they will eternally be a dominant force in society. I do not see how they can not succumb eventually to education, science and reason. That doesn't mean that humans will suddenly lose their penchant for confirmation bias, but it does mean that religion will eventually be a less polarizing force and further down the road, will be pushed to the edges and maybe even the fringes.
But that is a long view ... I'm talking another millennium, with lots of fits and starts along the way.
It’s mostly just symbolism. Wealth inequality and racism are still with us.
Results are what matter. Symbolism is for politicians and people who want to feel morally superior without actually doing anything.
They are, and they will always be, sadly. Greed and divisiveness are part of humanity.
But it's not just symbolism for the gay couple who wants to be married and be part of a church community or the black person in a mostly-white town who wants somewhere to go and feel accepted. Might not be able to change the world, but if we can make some individual lives better, why sneer and dismiss it?
I get that you completely despise all religion and have a skewed viewpoint based on your experience, and that's fine, but it's a bit obnoxious to declare we do stuff just because it's symbolic. When I write something or speak against intolerance against others and racism and hatred toward other religions, it's not because I'm feeling symbolic. It's because the horror of what happened is so seared into my brain that I hope someone will rethink their behavior and their way of thinking. Those are the results I am going for.
Old people give away their money to fraudsters because they have 'faith' that the fraudsters are genuine. After all, if they knew they were fraudsters they wouldn't do it would they?
I love my late mother dearly but she was one of these people who always said "they" wouldn't let such and such happen if it weren't legitimate. I never got her to explain to me who "they" were. But I suspect is was just a blind trust in "the powers that be" whether on earth or in an imagined heaven.
There was even some degree to which the complex, flawed system that was the American democratic republic could be "trusted" to "take care" of most people once upon a time, at least if you were a white heterosexual and especially if you were one or more of male, Christian, or not poor. But that's a bygone era, though given its lack of inclusiveness, not the sort to pine for, even to the extent that it was real.
... using [religious] faith -- which ultimately leads to religion -- is inherently authoritarian and fascistic. It limits choices, tramples on freedom, and uses every power available to it to prevent disobedience and to stop people from asking legitimate and pertinent questions.
I agree re: religious faith. I don't 100% agree concerning expressed religion. What I am coming to see is that a small minority of religious people aren't fascistic, doctrinaire, dogmatic or authoritarian. At all. And not just personally, but corporately. The irony is that they work so hard to be open, inclusive, and oriented to community rather than creed ... not realizing that much of their energy is expended in overcoming the authoritarian tendencies inherent in the underpinnings of religion itself.
Predictably, that leaves them on the outs with most of organized religion ... or at the very least, ignored.
So while examples of benign religious good works exist in the world, I am still of the opinion that the same ends could be achieved without the religious cruft. And I still think you are substantially correct in your generalizations.
On the other hand, who knows, maybe these outliers I've encountered will ultimately undermine religion as a social force except in name only. I rather doubt it, as they tend to be shrinking in numbers from what I've been able to determine.
They are, and they will always be, sadly. Greed and divisiveness are part of humanity.
But it's not just symbolism for the gay couple who wants to be married and be part of a church community or the black person in a mostly-white town who wants somewhere to go and feel accepted. Might not be able to change the world, but if we can make some individual lives better, why sneer and dismiss it?
I get that you completely despise all religion and have a skewed viewpoint based on your experience, and that's fine, but it's a bit obnoxious to declare we do stuff just because it's symbolic. When I write something or speak against intolerance against others and racism and hatred toward other religions, it's not because I'm feeling symbolic. It's because the horror of what happened is so seared into my brain that I hope someone will rethink their behavior and their way of thinking. Those are the results I am going for.
When the Christian Left pushes for a universal basic income and succeeds, I’ll be impressed. Until then...
Progressivism (religious and secular) has completely ignored economic issues since the end of the civil rights era. As a result, we now have Third World levels of wealth inequality and corruption of government. And progressives wonder why Trump is in the White House.
When the Christian Left pushes for a universal basic income and succeeds, I’ll be impressed. Until then...
Progressivism (religious and secular) has completely ignored economic issues since the end of the civil rights era. As a result, we now have Third World levels of wealth inequality and corruption of government. And progressives wonder why Trump is in the White House.
Yup, but that one word is all I'll say because now we're veering into politics and we durst not discuss politics, however relevant / interrelated to R&S.
I will just say that theologically liberal is not the same as politically liberal -- although the two tend to loosely track with each other.
When the Christian Left pushes for a universal basic income and succeeds, I’ll be impressed. Until then...
Progressivism (religious and secular) has completely ignored economic issues since the end of the civil rights era. As a result, we now have Third World levels of wealth inequality and corruption of government. And progressives wonder why Trump is in the White House.
I've had some problems in my personal life the last few months. Nothing earthshattering, but enough to make me stop and reassess how I live my life, whether or not I'm making correct choices, etc. I'm finding a faith in a creator helpful during this process, especially since we have so little to cling to in civic society.
Thoughts?
Interesting observation. Answering only the above, with no reference to other posts, I would say that I have experienced somewhat the reverse. After becoming at least open to the possibility of a creator, I eventually experienced some (to me) obvious evidence of a creator who has some interest in the world as it continues. This has had at least some effect on my outlook on what has come up for me. Certainly, I can claim common experience with "I'm finding a faith in a creator helpful during this process."
While "especially since we have so little to cling to in civic society," may be a very reasonable stand-alone statement, it may not be true for everyone, and is IMO a non-sequitur addendum. Your (and my) outlook stands or falls without this addition.
Yup, but that one word is all I'll say because now we're veering into politics and we durst not discuss politics, however relevant / interrelated to R&S.
I will just say that theologically liberal is not the same as politically liberal -- although the two tend to loosely track with each other.
Good point.
There are people like me who are theologically liberal but mostly despise the political machine on all sides. We're not going to fight for something like basic universal income because it is not going to happen. But we'll feed and clothe and house the people who don't have those things because of the wealth inequality.
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