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Katzpur,
Yeah, let’s let bygones be bygones- especially since you’re not a moderator here and can’t harass me.
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Originally Posted by jencam
Charging money for worthiness?
ETA: OK you mean tithing. I was thinking of something else.
Hi Jencam,
I realize that many churches ask for tithing but few restrict who can get married or attend marriages or otherwise be considered worthy if they don’t pay money to the church, as the Mormon/lds church does. Few churches keep finances secret while they call in each member for regular “tithing settlements.” Few churches have their 12-year-olds knock on members doors each month to collect money for the church. Few churches have sold the idea that paying tithing is “fire insurance” and will prevent you from burning in hell.
The mormon/lds church has changed scripture so they could get more money. All scripture related to tithing explains it as based on increase. Yet, lds church leaders have told members that they must pay on income.
There is a reason why tithing is supposed to be based on increase, NOT income.
There are 2 men who earn the same income.
1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 so after bills, no increase is left.
2nd man lives with his parents who pay all bills so all of his income is increase.
Demanding both pay the same, as the Mormon church demands, is unfair and unChrist-like.
This is contributing to the high rate of debt and bankruptcy among Mormons. Not only is this causing more poverty, Dallin Oaks (lds leader) admitted that no tithes go to the poor - admitting they are disobeying the law of tithing which requires 1/3 of collected tithes to be given to the poor (Deut 14:28-29 - this scripture is kept out of lds bible indexes under “tithing” & out of curriculum).
A stake authority came to the YSA today and referenced "gay marriage" in a disparaging fashion. It led to some attendees walking out of sacrament meeting.
I realize that many churches ask for tithing but few restrict who can get married or attend marriages or otherwise be considered worthy if they don’t pay money to the church, as the Mormon/lds church does.
True. But here's where I stand on that... I believe the Church has every right to have any requirements the leadership chooses to determine whether an individual can attend the temple or not. That doesn't mean that I like all of the requirements. Personally, I don't believe that living the Word of Wisdom should be a requirement for a temple recommend, since it was clearly a revelation given to Joseph Smith "not by commandment" but as "a word of wisdom." I also know of no revelation changing it to a commandments. But, the rules are what they are.
If I had a child who was engaged to someone whose parents were non-LDS or non-"temple-worthy" LDS, I would actually be in favor of their having a civil ceremony and them going to the temple at a later date to be sealed. I think it's very important that parents be able to witness their children's marriages, and even though I was originally married in the temple, I think that the commandment to honor one's parents should take precedence in these cases. It's not as if a sealing later on is any less binding than one done as part of the actual marriage.
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Few churches keep finances secret while they call in each member for regular “tithing settlements.”
I would prefer it if the Church were to tell us where the money goes. I think we pretty much know where it ends up, though, and as I said before, I don't think the Church's leadership is living high on the hog. No, it doesn't go to support the poor, and that's what you have issues with. I'm fine with paying tithes and offerings -- the offerings going to support the poor. And tithing settlement is something that I see simply as good money management. If I've paid several thousand dollars to the Church in any given year, I want to know that none of that money accidentally got credited to another member of my ward. I'm going to claim it on my income tax return so I want to know that my numbers match the Church's.
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Few churches have their 12-year-olds knock on members doors each month to collect money for the church.
They haven't done that for a number of years in my area. Do they still do so in yours?
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Few churches have sold the idea that paying tithing is “fire insurance” and will prevent you from burning in hell.
Yeah, most churches have plenty of other reasons for sending you to hell. I've never actually heard a General Authority use that kind of threat (which would make sense since we don't believe in the mainstream idea of a Lake of Fire anyway), but I have heard lay members make comments of that sort. I chalk it up to ignorance.
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The mormon/lds church has changed scripture so they could get more money. All scripture related to tithing explains it as based on increase. Yet, lds church leaders have told members that they must pay on income.
There is a reason why tithing is supposed to be based on increase, NOT income.
There are 2 men who earn the same income.
1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 so after bills, no increase is left.
2nd man lives with his parents who pay all bills so all of his income is increase.
Demanding both pay the same, as the Mormon church demands, is unfair and unChrist-like.
This is contributing to the high rate of debt and bankruptcy among Mormons. Not only is this causing more poverty, Dallin Oaks (lds leader) admitted that no tithes go to the poor - admitting they are disobeying the law of tithing which requires 1/3 of collected tithes to be given to the poor (Deut 14:28-29 - this scripture is kept out of lds bible indexes under “tithing” & out of curriculum).
Where are we told "income" as opposed to "increase"? I've always heard "increase" and have just interpreted it as "income" since my increase is directly tied to my income. I do know that bishops are told to let members interpret the law of tithing as their conscience directs them. Perhaps a few do not do as they're told.
Katzpur,
Yeah, let’s let bygones be bygones- especially since you’re not a moderator here and can’t harass me.
Hi Jencam,
I realize that many churches ask for tithing but few restrict who can get married or attend marriages or otherwise be considered worthy if they don’t pay money to the church, as the Mormon/lds church does. Few churches keep finances secret while they call in each member for regular “tithing settlements.” Few churches have their 12-year-olds knock on members doors each month to collect money for the church. Few churches have sold the idea that paying tithing is “fire insurance” and will prevent you from burning in hell.
The mormon/lds church has changed scripture so they could get more money. All scripture related to tithing explains it as based on increase. Yet, lds church leaders have told members that they must pay on income.
There is a reason why tithing is supposed to be based on increase, NOT income.
There are 2 men who earn the same income.
1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 so after bills, no increase is left.
2nd man lives with his parents who pay all bills so all of his income is increase.
Demanding both pay the same, as the Mormon church demands, is unfair and unChrist-like.
This is contributing to the high rate of debt and bankruptcy among Mormons. Not only is this causing more poverty, Dallin Oaks (lds leader) admitted that no tithes go to the poor - admitting they are disobeying the law of tithing which requires 1/3 of collected tithes to be given to the poor (Deut 14:28-29 - this scripture is kept out of lds bible indexes under “tithing” & out of curriculum).
That is really sad. I have a Mormon friend who is quite poor. She has not mentioned this problem to me, but I see where it could be really huge. How horrible to want to do right and be right and go to the Temple not only for weddings but the Spiritual Progression stuff and money is in the way?
My Aunt is a believer in tithing and her favorite story to tell is about a woman in her church who was very poor, wore the same dress every Sunday and proudly dropped her $2 every Sunday. I remember a time when I was embarrassed not to be able to put more than a couple dollars myself but thankfully no one comments on that. People pass the plate quickly and do their best not to see what amount someone else is putting in.
I can't imagine it being kept track of by the Church at all.
But that brings me around to shunning. IDK how being barred from the Temple is not a form of shunning. To some I would imagine this is worse than being shunned by people, being barred from the communion with GOD.
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“You can earn [a place in the presence of our Father in Heaven],” LDS apostle Marion G. Romney once said, “by observing faithfully day by day, and year by year, the law of tithing and the other requirements of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Thanks, Jencam.
It’s good to know the truth - the good and bad of an organization before you’re sucked into mind-control which greatly discourages critical thinking - often calling it “anti-mormon.”
Moderator cut: You know better than to say that. It has some good qualities, and it may CLAIM to honor free agency & free speech - but in practice, as characteristic of a cult, it often punishes both.
Katzpur,
The truth is that as it states on mormon donation slips - “ALL DONATION BECOME THE PROPERTY OF THE CHURCH & WILL BE USED AT THE CHURCH’S SOLE DISCRETION.” Except unfortunately, it’s much smaller print at the bottom of the donation slips. For all you know, fast offerings could be going to build yet another shopping mall using funds collected in the name of Jesus Christ. There’s no financial transparency in the mormon/lds church.
Last edited by mensaguy; 09-16-2018 at 05:26 PM..
Reason: We don't call anybody's church a cult.
That is really sad. I have a Mormon friend who is quite poor. She has not mentioned this problem to me, but I see where it could be really huge. How horrible to want to do right and be right and go to the Temple not only for weddings but the Spiritual Progression stuff and money is in the way?
To be fair, if a member does pay tithing and requires assistance from the Church, all they need do is ask. No one is expected to go hungry or homeless because he cannot afford to pay 10% of "whatever amount his conscience tells him he should be paying on." If a member paid only on his "increase," and that's what his conscience told him to pay on, he could honestly answer the bishop's question, "Do you pay a full tithing?" (with a "Yes") and not be asked to clarify what he meant. The Church provides far, far more for its needy members than those members are ever asked to pay in tithing.
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My Aunt is a believer in tithing and her favorite story to tell is about a woman in her church who was very poor, wore the same dress every Sunday and proudly dropped her $2 every Sunday. I remember a time when I was embarrassed not to be able to put more than a couple dollars myself but thankfully no one comments on that. People pass the plate quickly and do their best not to see what amount someone else is putting in.
I'd find it very embarrassing to have to have everybody in the congregation watch what I contributed. That's why contributions in my church are given privately and not witnessed by anyone.
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I can't imagine it being kept track of by the Church at all.
Huh? Why on earth not? If the members are going to be claiming their tithing contributions, the Church has to be able to prove that they received said donations. It's part of being fiscally responsible, for crying out loud.
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But that brings me around to shunning. IDK how being barred from the Temple is not a form of shunning. To some I would imagine this is worse than being shunned by people, being barred from the communion with GOD.
Every member is encouraged to live in such a way that he can go to the temple. If someone disagrees with the requirements, that's their choice. And no, it's not a form of shunning that the Church has requirements for temple entrance when anyone who wants to can qualify. I love wine. If I chose to disobey our health code which prohibits it, I know I would no longer be able to get a temple recommend. That would be a choice I had to make and was entitled to make.
That blows me away. Thanks for your input. I am so sorry it's causing you problems in your family.
I'm sorry it's causing problems in SuperSoul's family, too. I know that if I were to stop paying tithing and no longer be permitted to attend the temple, my husband would never even consider divorcing me. That doesn't sound like a very strong marriage to me. To be perfectly honest, I can't even imagine wanting to stay with such a man. And absolutely nothing would make me raise my children in a church I believed to be a cult. That's just not responsible parenting. It's inexcusable in my opinion. Furthermore, I doubt very much that SuperSoul's bishop is encouraging her husband to divorce her. And this just goes to prove that people are different. Some are far more "letter of the law" types than others and are simply much, much more judgmental. I've been blessed. As a matter of fact, when my cousin's wife (a convert to the Church) decided that she no longer wanted to be a Mormon, my cousin asked his bishop what he should do. His bishop asked, "Do you still love her?" "Very, very much," my cousin said. The bishop's response: "Then stay with her and love her and make your marriage work." Today, many years later, they are still very happily married.
The truth is that as it states on mormon donation slips - “ALL DONATION BECOME THE PROPERTY OF THE CHURCH & WILL BE USED AT THE CHURCH’S SOLE DISCRETION.” Except unfortunately, it’s much smaller print at the bottom of the donation slips. For all you know, fast offerings could be going to build yet another shopping mall using funds collected in the name of Jesus Christ. There’s no financial transparency in the mormon/lds church.
Clearly, you think the Church's leaders are money-hungry, but you have no proof of that. You don't pay tithing, fine. You don't pay fast offerings, fine. I don't believe for one minute that either fast offerings or tithings are used to build malls. If you do, that's your prerogative. Obviously the donations become the property of the Church to be used at the Church's discretion -- to further the Church's overall mission. The Church is building roughly one new building in the world every single day (chapels, institutes, etc.) How do you think this would be possible without our tithing funds? It doesn't matter who you donate to -- what you donate becomes the property of whoever you donate it to. That's not rocket science.
I'm not asking you questions about Joseph Smith. I am making statements regarding what I think and feel. I asked a mod upthread if there is something different about this thread than others that means people may not discuss their views and disagree on things and she said no.
To clarify: You did not specifically ask the question to a Mod, and my response was not in red and therefore a response by me as another poster.
However, this one is. You may of course disagree, as long as you stay on topic.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Oh, well that's good to know. You're not "asking questions" because you think you know it all already. You just keep on "expressing your views" and demonstrating your expertise on Mormonism. But you'll have to excuse me if I just start ignoring you.
That is always an option on City-Data that should be considered to keep threads from derailing.
However, this one is. You may of course disagree, as long as you stay on topic.
Perhaps it might be useful for a moderator to make a determination as to what the "topic" of this thread actually is. Is it Mormon doctrine, Mormon history, Book of Mormon archaeology, DNA studies, or something else entirely?
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That is always an option on City-Data that should be considered to keep threads from derailing.
True. I took a break from this thread a couple of weeks ago because it was getting off topic. Perhaps I'll have to do so again.
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I love wine. If I chose to disobey our health code which prohibits it, I know I would no longer be able to get a temple recommend. That would be a choice I had to make and was entitled to make. 
