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You have been fortunate not to have ever encountered a true sociopath.
You presume much. It is also irrelevant to the science.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
William James had to acknowledge that there is a source of evil in humanity that cannot be explained by psychology alone and that is the unconstrained consciousness.
If William James said it over 100 years ago, then it must be true. One also has to ask, is there such a thing as an "unconstrained consciousness"?
The interplay of these factors is explained briefly in an article on the development of morality in the September Scientific American. I would recommend it to anyone with the capacity to actually think about the subject.
From an animal kingdom perspective, the scorpion is only doing what it does according to its own kind. Some animals are agressive, some are passive. Some animals even attack their own children, some are nurturing. Some animals will fight and kill each other. Some animals work together in groups.
Yet there is one thing I see in common here. No one looks at those actions and says, wow those creatures sure are immoral. Atheists want me to believe that we are nothing more than another creation, born out of time and chance. We are just another link in evolution, another branch on the giant tree of evolution. And yet if we did any of those things, we would be see as evil, grossly immoral and cruel. So the atheist tries to convince me that I am an animal because we share so many similarities with other species and they point to things like how dogs express real human emotions. We are animals because animals are like us.
I recently watched a documentary about illegal gambling in the US. It took a look into the dark world of dog fighting. In one scene, the trainers take what appears to be a gentle dog wagging his tail and place him in front of his mother. So messed up. They use some tactics to agitate the dog and suddenly they turn on each other. Killing machines going after their own family. So much for being human like. Man's best friend can be manipulated and programmed into something entirely different. Because animals don't view actions in terms of morality like we do. They don't weigh consequences even though we do have some fairly intelligent species out there.
You can't have it both ways. If we are animals then we should be acting like animals. Behaving according to our preprogrammed nature and instinct, not conflicted in areas of morality.
The better question is ....if human beings are spiritual, why doe we care about morality?
If birds are animals, then how come they can fly? I mean the rest of animals basically can't right.
If chameolons are animals, then how come they can change color?
If this animal has attribute X, but other animals don't, then this animal isn't a an animal right?
If humans are animals, then how come they can have morality? I mean the rest of animals basically can't right. (Apart from the social animals which have already been shown to act with behavior consistent a basic & limited moral code system - of course, lets just ignore those inconvenient ones. Like the ones that act in an outraged manner when animal social group codes are violated by an individual - plus the behavior of the violators clearly acting in a manner they know they are breaking rules, as also seen in various primate groups. And animals that assist the sickly in their group. And animals that share. Yes, all behaviors that have been occasionally observed in some higher functioning animals in nature. But lets forget them as it doesn't fit your "humans aren't scorpions" thesis).
Hey Jeff, if you really want to "think" why not ponder how disparate humans of no particular religions together came up with a moral code, called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which makes Christian and Islamic and most other religious moral codes look practically barbaric and medieval. And its a moral code that is based on the right thing to do because that is the society we want to live in as based on others behavior towards ourselves, not one based on boiling sulfur underground lakes at one end and comfy fluffy clouds with the prize of everlasting life at the other. You think one of those moral systems sounds a bit more moral than the other? On second thoughts, don't risk thinking.
The better question is ....if human beings are spiritual, why do we care about morality?
That's right... in their supposed idea "sticks and stone may break my bones, but my spirit? That is completely up to my personal freewill or whatever ruler God happens to exist by whatever chance."
They'd have to add extra stories and caveats to make morality meaningful to a spirit.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 12-11-2018 at 11:22 PM..
If birds are animals, then how come they can fly? I mean the rest of animals basically can't right.
If chameolons are animals, then how come they can change color?
If this animal has attribute X, but other animals don't, then this animal isn't a an animal right?
If humans are animals, then how come they can have morality? I mean the rest of animals basically can't right. (Apart from the social animals which have already been shown to act with behavior consistent a basic & limited moral code system - of course, lets just ignore those inconvenient ones. Like the ones that act in an outraged manner when animal social group codes are violated by an individual - plus the behavior of the violators clearly acting in a manner they know they are breaking rules, as also seen in various primate groups. And animals that assist the sickly in their group. And animals that share. Yes, all behaviors that have been occasionally observed in some higher functioning animals in nature. But lets forget them as it doesn't fit your "humans aren't scorpions" thesis).
Those are physical traits. Morality is not a physical trait. You can't even know where it comes from. After all, look at Nazi Germany. Those people were born with the same brains as we have. Where did their sense of empathy go? Any example of morality in higher functioning animals most likely is nothing more than humans protecting their idea of morality into the behavior. Remember the story of the chimp who ripped off her loving owner's friends face? She was begging him to stop. But he was acting on preprogrammed animal instinct. Of the Siegfried & Roy show that was forced to close when their animals turned on the hosts. Animals are not humans and humans are not animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chint
Hey Jeff, if you really want to "think" why not ponder how disparate humans of no particular religions together came up with a moral code, called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which makes Christian and Islamic and most other religious moral codes look practically barbaric and medieval. And its a moral code that is based on the right thing to do because that is the society we want to live in as based on others behavior towards ourselves, not one based on boiling sulfur underground lakes at one end and comfy fluffy clouds with the prize of everlasting life at the other. You think one of those moral systems sounds a bit more moral than the other? On second thoughts, don't risk thinking.
It's a very basic morality code based on observation that society functions best under such standards and not cruel unjust ones like dictators and Communism. It doesn't teach people how to have true empathy for each other which is the foundation of Christianity morality.
Those are physical traits. Morality is not a physical trait. You can't even know where it comes from.
Unless you look at the science behind morality. But you never look, even when pointed in the right direction.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
After all, look at Nazi Germany. Those people were born with the same brains as we have. Where did their sense of empathy go?
In group - out group morality. Seriously, the science for this started in the 50's and 60's. Google science of morality and see what you get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Any example of morality in higher functioning animals most likely is nothing more than humans protecting their idea of morality into the behavior.
An assertion with NO evidence based on if you look at the actual evidence, you will once again be proven wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Remember the story of the chimp who ripped off her loving owner's friends face? She was begging him to stop. But he was acting on preprogrammed animal instinct. Of the Siegfried & Roy show that was forced to close when their animals turned on the hosts. Animals are not humans and humans are not animals.
So when humans behave like animals, that means they are not animals. Err ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It's a very basic morality code based on observation that society functions best under such standards and not cruel unjust ones like dictators and Communism. It doesn't teach people how to have true empathy for each other which is the foundation of Christianity morality.
Christian morality works just like science says it would, in group versus out group. It is even in the NT. Us versus them.
Those are physical traits. Morality is not a physical trait. You can't even know where it comes from.
All the evidence we have suggests it comes from our brain where the rest of our consciousness comes from. And the brain last time I checked was a physical entity and as such the things coming from it are physical traits.
You might not know much about science but I am not seeing on what basis you are projecting what you know little about onto what others know or do not know.
If _you_ want to evidence _your_ claim that morality is not just another trait like any other trait in the animal kingdom - especially given animals do in fact demonstrate elements and precursors of it - then by all means do. Random baseless assertions for it like this one above however are not going to function as evidence for you in the interim however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
After all, look at Nazi Germany. Those people were born with the same brains as we have. Where did their sense of empathy go?
Well actually you make a good point here - but completely opposite to the one I think you were hoping to make. Where and why did their empathy go away? It went away because the focus of their lack of empathy was successfully dehumanized in their minds. A dogma was instilled in them that made them few "the other" as somewhat less than human.
And that is often the move the religious make. Not a move you often see atheists make and certainly not a move that you can make solely based on atheism as under atheism there is no difference between us and no basis for dehumanization of one group more than another.
Why only in my home country of Ireland recently did a Bishop high up in the Catholic Hierarchy declare that atheists are "not fully human". Once again the religious narrative of dehumanizing the other because once you manage that - you can do or say what you like to "the other".
Well actually you make a good point here - but completely opposite to the one I think you were hoping to make. Where and why did their empathy go away? It went away because the focus of their lack of empathy was successfully dehumanized in their minds. A dogma was instilled in them that made them few "the other" as somewhat less than human.
And that is often the move the religious make. Not a move you often see atheists make and certainly not a move that you can make solely based on atheism as under atheism there is no difference between us and no basis for dehumanization of one group more than another.
According to every single atheist I have ever spoken to "humans ARE animals".
I call that dehumanization
Last edited by mensaguy; 12-13-2018 at 06:01 AM..
Reason: Please stop using red text
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