Faith without any reason vs Faith without any evidence (evolutionary, about, proof)
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(sorry, but I have to smile) I am sure we have done the fallacy of planned intention (TM ) before. You assume that the way that the universe, Life and Everything has turned out is a planned result. The correct analogy would be tossing the rocks or pebbles on a slab and ...however they form a pattern...is the pattern they form. The chances of them forming your name - astronomical. The chances of forming the formation that they do? Inevitable. I know the evolution of a working method (design) can look like it was planned, but in fact the sheer waste of extinction argues against any planning.
For the bold part: Unless you can prove it to me (which you probably cant) at the entire design of the universe and everything in it came together all by a random chance.
The motion of planets in our solar system for example, it's design came together by a random chance, the planets in this solar system are moving in their orbits with a great precision for 100 and millions of years, and they don't go astray from their path, just by chance.
lol - or you are going to take the easy way out and say, "There is no design in the formation of the universe and there is no design in nature".
For the bold part: Unless you can prove it to me (which you probably cant) at the entire design of the universe and everything in it came together all by a random chance.
The motion of planets in our solar system for example, it's design came together by a random chance, the planets in this solar system are moving in their orbits with a great precision for 100 and millions of years, and they don't go astray from their path, just by chance.
lol - or you are going to take the easy way out and say, "There is no design in the formation of the universe and there is no design in nature".
you do know that random only means not predictable by us right? I mean even in QM pink elephants will not pop out of a piece of paper burning. regular piece in your hand that is.
its not random. the constants in many equations show that it is not random as you are talking about. They show that it is tuned.
you do know that random only means not predictable by us right? I mean even in QM pink elephants will not pop out of a piece of paper burning. regular piece in your hand that is.
its not random. the constants in many equations show that it is not random as you are talking about. They show that it is tuned.
Correct. Look at it this way.... if there *WAS* an Intelligent Designer, the very best we could say is that he/she/it was not very "intelligent!" Why would someone/something with a plan set in place a malleable process like evolution, patiently wait several MILLION years for the plan to take shape... with lots of wrong turns and dead ends... only to end up with a very imperfect design like the human body, filled with things we don't use or need (e.g., the appendix, the coccyx (tailbone), wisdom teeth, erector pili (goose bumps) that are still hanging around as vestiges of that evolution, a horribly complex mechanism for transfer of genetic information that is prone to mistakes and mutations, etc, etc, etc?
If the designer had the power to create us, and was going to all the trouble, why didn't he/she/it have the foresight and power to (a) cut to the chase and (b) do a better job? The obvious answer, supported by more hard evidence than virtually any other aspect of science, is that we evolved through natural processes. Conversely, there is nothing (other than human imagination and a wish to be special) to suggest that we are the end result of some master plan.
If the designer had the power to create us, and was going to all the trouble, why didn't he/she/it have the foresight and power to (a) cut to the chase and (b) do a better job? The obvious answer, supported by more hard evidence than virtually any other aspect of science, is that we evolved through natural processes. Conversely, there is nothing (other than human imagination and a wish to be special) to suggest that we are the end result of some master plan.
Not only this but humans are the most destructive parasite living on this earth. We are causing the demise of this tiny planet as well as the extinction of 100,000's other species including presently working on making us extinct before our time.
Nothing intelligent about the human design....heck we can only exist in a very narrow realm upon this earth. We can't live on most of the earth's surface nor can we exist 11–12 mi above sea level. We are constrained to a very narrow area of existence on this earth.
Not only this but humans are the most destructive parasite living on this earth. We are causing the demise of this tiny planet as well as the extinction of 100,000's other species including presently working on making us extinct before our time.
Nothing intelligent about the human design....heck we can only exist in a very narrow realm upon this earth. We can't live on most of the earth's surface nor can we exist 11–12 mi above sea level. We are constrained to a very narrow area of existence on this earth.
On the plus side, we keep making interesting new stuff, and learning interesting new things, that leads to making newer, more interesting stuff that leads to...
The motion of planets in our solar system for example, it's design came together by a random chance, the planets in this solar system are moving in their orbits with a great precision for 100 and millions of years, and they don't go astray from their path, just by chance.
But you are wrong. The universe is not a 'precise' place. Planets are crashing into each other, exploding and being destroyed all the time. It is a very violent and dangerous place.
As for 'intelligent design'. If such were the case, perhaps you would like to explain why the human body has so many problems that, if designed, could only have been designed by an idiot.
For the bold part: Unless you can prove it to me (which you probably cant) at the entire design of the universe and everything in it came together all by a random chance.
The motion of planets in our solar system for example, it's design came together by a random chance, the planets in this solar system are moving in their orbits with a great precision for 100 and millions of years, and they don't go astray from their path, just by chance.
lol - or you are going to take the easy way out and say, "There is no design in the formation of the universe and there is no design in nature".
I'm going to take the easier way out and say: "The theory of evolution (in the broadest sense) of the universe of matter/enegy by trial and error, really, is adequate to explain the way it is, and it is for you to prove to me that it couldn't have happened that way. Until you do, there is no reason for me to credit a Planner.
The idea that it all works in an orderly way implying a Planner is misconceived, too. You put something in orbit and it continues in orbit unless some force acts on it. Continued regularity is what we would expect from natural processes. If they suddenly started doing inexplicable things, then you might at least have some kind of argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster
Correct. Look at it this way.... if there *WAS* an Intelligent Designer, the very best we could say is that he/she/it was not very "intelligent!" Why would someone/something with a plan set in place a malleable process like evolution, patiently wait several MILLION years for the plan to take shape... with lots of wrong turns and dead ends... only to end up with a very imperfect design like the human body, filled with things we don't use or need (e.g., the appendix, the coccyx (tailbone), wisdom teeth, erector pili (goose bumps) that are still hanging around as vestiges of that evolution, a horribly complex mechanism for transfer of genetic information that is prone to mistakes and mutations, etc, etc, etc?
If the designer had the power to create us, and was going to all the trouble, why didn't he/she/it have the foresight and power to (a) cut to the chase and (b) do a better job? The obvious answer, supported by more hard evidence than virtually any other aspect of science, is that we evolved through natural processes. Conversely, there is nothing (other than human imagination and a wish to be special) to suggest that we are the end result of some master plan.
Exactly right. The whole evolutionary process shouts that it was not a planned process with an intended outcome. This assumption (like the a priori god -claim) screws all Christian apologetic reasoning from the start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
But you are wrong. The universe is not a 'precise' place. Planets are crashing into each other, exploding and being destroyed all the time. It is a very violent and dangerous place.
As for 'intelligent design'. If such were the case, perhaps you would like to explain why the human body has so many problems that, if designed, could only have been designed by an idiot.
Indeed. The human skeleton was not 'designed' for bipedalism. It has been adapted to to it, but it still leaves us with structural problems. Back -strain, notably. I might mention in passing that part of the evidence for 'Lucy' being bipedal is the spine enters the skull from below and not from the back, which it would do if it was accustomed to going on all fours. Creationists impudently lie and say the spine enters the skull from the back.
For the bold part: Unless you can prove it to me (which you probably cant) at the entire design of the universe and everything in it came together all by a random chance.
The motion of planets in our solar system for example, it's design came together by a random chance, the planets in this solar system are moving in their orbits with a great precision for 100 and millions of years, and they don't go astray from their path, just by chance.
lol - or you are going to take the easy way out and say, "There is no design in the formation of the universe and there is no design in nature".
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It is not a question of Not Understanding; it is a question of Not Listening.
(sorry, but I have to smile) I am sure we have done the fallacy of planned intention (TM 
) before. You assume that the way that the universe, Life and Everything has turned out is a planned result. The correct analogy would be tossing the rocks or pebbles on a slab and ...however they form a pattern...is the pattern they form. The chances of them forming your name - astronomical. The chances of forming the formation that they do? Inevitable. I know the evolution of a working method (design) can look like it was planned, but in fact the sheer waste of extinction argues against any planning. 
