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You are referring to Jesus, so yes, I would be shocked if it were proven that He did not rise from the dead. That event is at the core of Christianity. If that event isn’t true then neither is Christianity.
ok, so when you talk to atheist keep in mind you are asking us to believe something that would not hold up in a rational court. And in some cases, actually faulting us for using the scientific method and court approach. Nobody, in and around our generation (lets go back 200 years) has seen a person rise from the dead.
so I have to ask you why would you be shocked to find out that the people back then exaggerated the story?
maybe they even thought they saw him. A traumatic event like that definitely could cause that. But you are saying you would be shocked to find out it wasn't true. To me, reading the bible Jesus never wanted this to take place. He was jewish. so I think he would telling you to be a non literal jew if anything else. I actualy think he would agree more with budha and say "If you see me on the road after I die ... Kill me." But I digress.
keep in mind, something more, not more deities is by far the most reasonable starting point based on science alone. You can have your god. Some atheist just ask that you give the thing traits that match up to the universe.
Being shocked if you found out Jesus didn't rise from the dead as taught when everybody we know in the last few generations never saw a guy rise from the dead tells us what?
ok, so when you talk to atheist keep in mind you are asking us to believe something that would not hold up in a rational court. And in some cases, actually faulting us for using the scientific method and court approach. Nobody, in and around our generation (lets go back 200 years) has seen a person rise from the dead.
so I have to ask you why would you be shocked to find out that the people back then exaggerated the story?
maybe they even thought they saw him. A traumatic event like that definitely could cause that. But you are saying you would be shocked to find out it wasn't true. To me, reading the bible Jesus never wanted this to take place. He was jewish. so I think he would telling you to be a non literal jew if anything else. I actualy think he would agree more with budha and say "If you see me on the road after I die ... Kill me." But I digress.
keep in mind, something more, not more deities is by far the most reasonable starting point based on science alone. You can have your god. Some atheist just ask that you give the thing traits that match up to the universe.
Being shocked if you found out Jesus didn't rise from the dead as taught when everybody we know in the last few generations never saw a guy rise from the dead tells us what?
Jesus rising from the dead was extraordinary.
It is the single most impacting event in human history.
"Nobody, in and around our generation (lets go back 200 years) has seen a person rise from the dead"
Is this a representative example of your reasoning powers?
You are referring to Jesus, so yes, I would be shocked if it were proven that He did not rise from the dead. That event is at the core of Christianity. If that event isn’t true then neither is Christianity.
Hence the reason many of us do not believe in christianity. It's actually rather sad that you see that as paramount. There are many wonderful principles in the new testament.
You are referring to Jesus, so yes, I would be shocked if it were proven that He did not rise from the dead. That event is at the core of Christianity. If that event isn’t true then neither is Christianity.
ok, so see how we are coming up with our beliefs?
1) I say we don't see people coming back to life so I don't think that event happened.
vs
2) you say "That event is at the core of Christianity so if it didn't happen Christianity is wrong."
I say Christianity can be "true" if you dump the die and rising part. In fact, I would go so far to say that Christianity would be better if you guys dumped that part and kept Jesus teachings at the center.
"something more" is the best we have. so by all means use it. "dying and rising for our sins" as a trait/property of something more is clearly less valid today based on what we know.
you do know what I mean when I say "property"? I don't mean to sound rude but one time I debating this my sister and 45 minutes into it she said something like is that what you mean by properties!! why did you just say that. And we then agreed pretty quickly.
Jesus rising from the dead was extraordinary.
It is the single most impacting event in human history.
"Nobody, in and around our generation (lets go back 200 years) has seen a person rise from the dead"
Is this a representative example of your reasoning powers?
yes, its called the scientific method.
I use what we do know as a base line standard to compare with what we don't know. Its called "measuring".
you use what you don't know and how you feel as your base line standard. Basically its like asking how high a wall is. understanding that we do not have an actually "meter stick" type device.
I would grab a stick and say "that wall looks like its "7.5 sticks" high.
you seem to say things like "since we don't know how long that stick is, I believe its twenty feet tall."
To which I answer, I don't think so, I am about 2 sticks from the top while flat footed.
SPOILER ALERT: That is, nevertheless, exactly where this movie is going to end up. You may be enticed with tales of "vast bodies" of evidence, bolstered by scientific scholarship, endorsed by world-class thinkers. But when push comes to shove, it all rides on faith:
No doubt there is no cracking the confirmation bias that has all of us solidly beyond budging what we think no matter the facts, reason or logic to the contrary, and/or no matter the faith or religion...
Obviously no moving of the needle really occurs in this forum, but I like to look back over the history of mankind where the progress along these lines becomes better defined. Most certainly including the development of modern science that has brought us along leaps and bounds compared to the day when faith, religion, was about all we had to consider for all the many centuries going back thousands of years.
I use what we do know as a base line standard to compare with what we don't know. Its called "measuring".
you use what you don't know and how you feel as your base line standard. Basically its like asking how high a wall is. understanding that we do not have an actually "meter stick" type device.
I would grab a stick and say "that wall looks like its "7.5 sticks" high.
you seem to say things like "since we don't know how long that stick is, I believe its twenty feet tall."
To which I answer, I don't think so, I am about 2 sticks from the top while flat footed.
do you see the difference?
Looks like I may have created a monster...
If you or anyone can get Iwas to refocus more specifically on the topic of this thread, maybe we can at least get better definition about where the sticking points are along those lines more specifically. Was sort of my hope instead of this mindless back-and-forth to nowhere so typical of what religious folks think vs what atheists think.
If you or anyone can get Iwas to refocus more specifically on the topic of this thread, maybe we can at least get better definition about where the sticking points are along those lines more specifically. Was sort of my hope instead of this mindless back-and-forth to nowhere so typical of what religious folks think vs what atheists think.
Possible?
its a good monster. It gets down to demonstrating how we make choices sometimes. That is often more important than saying "I follow science".
I prefer to say I follow the truth as best I can determine what it is all considered...
yeah, That's a very valid point. I keep a eye on the "I" part sometimes. Sometimes"we" is better, sometimes, not so much.
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