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The first is that in science, objective truths are subject to change. Sure, one plus one will always be two, but at one point scientists said the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that there were no germs, that radium was not harmful to the human body, that smoking was healthy, that the atom was the smallest particle.
The second is that for most people the only thing that matters is subjective truth. The objective truths are what describes our reality, eg. there is gravity, so don't fall, we need air, water and food, so be sure not to be deprived of any of them, etc. Once learned, though, we take these for granted, and don't have to reconcile them or explain them. They have become common knowledge. However our subjective reality is of extreme importance to us, what we do and don't like, what gives us pleasure or pain, what brings happiness or misery.
The third is that our subjective reality includes things that science can't adequately explain to us. These are normally considered paranormal experiences, and if we believe them and have experienced them, we don't question them. These may include premonitions, dreams that foretell a significant event, encounters with spirits, communion with God and spirits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
When I was 15 an engineer told me that if I really wanted to experience mind-bending, then study quantum physics. I was like, Mr. Engineer, I can't even get past physics.
I didn't say that Jack = rude. I said that I believe Jack is rude but I do recognize this is a trivial point.
Does the sun really set? Just kidding, Learnme.
What I get from your truths is your attempt to separate human subjectiveness from objective truth. Nothing new for many of us but I definitely see your effort to try to share this idea from a different lens, because as you say, we "yearn to go back to a world which is more deeply rooted in the truth."
As a result, this is what I am seeing from your perspective.
Subjectiveness cannot be a universal truth for two reasons. One, it is a temporary condition. When the human dies, the subjective thoughts die with the human. On the other hand, universal truths are long-lasting. My belief that Jack is rude dies with me, whereas, light traveling faster than anything else will endure. The fact that subjective matter is a temporary condition is not the only reason it is subjective rather than universal. It is also something abstract and lives in the mind of a human. I can hide the fact that I think Jack is rude. Nobody will know. How will they know? (Tik Tok joke) On the other hand, one plus one is something everyone can see for themselves and agree on (even the banks).
Okay, so these two things are very different. But then it appears you are trying to find a relationship between the two with that whole yearning to go back to a world rooted in the truth, which leads to the very essence of what it is to be a human. This is all abstract thinking (of which I am a big fan) and we are right back to subjective thinking, no?
But anyway, I will give my idea of the essence of what it is to be a human. A human is a meaning-seeking species.
When I was 15 an engineer told me that if I really wanted to experience mind-bending, then study quantum physics. I was like, Mr. Engineer, I can't even get past physics.
I didn't say that Jack = rude. I said that I believe Jack is rude but I do recognize this is a trivial point.
Does the sun really set? Just kidding, Learnme.
What I get from your truths is your attempt to separate human subjectiveness from objective truth. Nothing new for many of us but I definitely see your effort to try to share this idea from a different lens, because as you say, we "yearn to go back to a world which is more deeply rooted in the truth."
As a result, this is what I am seeing from your perspective.
Subjectiveness cannot be a universal truth for two reasons. One, it is a temporary condition. When the human dies, the subjective thoughts die with the human. On the other hand, universal truths are long-lasting. My belief that Jack is rude dies with me, whereas, light traveling faster than anything else will endure. .
Bolded, exactly and that is universal truth. As for the speed of light, that will endure until we know different.
Does the sun really set? Yes and no. Intellectually we know it is the earth that is turning, but our subjective reality is beautiful sunsets and sunrise. This knowingness, of both, is what Advaita calls Brhman, Truth, and the experience of subjective world is Maya, or illusion. It is this Maya, the subjective experience, that causes suffering, and the cure is to realize the truth that is eternal, and to know that eternal truth is what we are in our essence. We are not our experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
Okay, so these two things are very different. But then it appears you are trying to find a relationship between the two with that whole yearning to go back to a world rooted in the truth, which leads to the very essence of what it is to be a human. This is all abstract thinking (of which I am a big fan) and we are right back to subjective thinking, no?
But anyway, I will give my idea of the essence of what it is to be a human. A human is a meaning-seeking species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez
I have a few thoughts on the matter.
The first is that in science, objective truths are subject to change. Sure, one plus one will always be two, but at one point scientists said the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that there were no germs, that radium was not harmful to the human body, that smoking was healthy, that the atom was the smallest particle.
And science is co-opted all the time to do evil things. Hello Dr Birx. Those who said opioids are not addictive and led the FDA lie. Mathematics is the only truth that is Truth. Because it is not words, not subjective, a concept not a material, and never changes.
It is clear that you do not comprehend the actual paradox of interpretation involved. The cat is in superposition which means it is alive AND dead until measurement. There are a variety of interpretations addressing this paradox along with one called Wigner's Friend.
You expected anything better from me? Anything better or different than I expect from you with yet another comment like this one? Please. I'll leave you be with your paradox here while I'm good to just consider the cat alive and/or dead until "measurement." What a thing...
When I was 15 an engineer told me that if I really wanted to experience mind-bending, then study quantum physics. I was like, Mr. Engineer, I can't even get past physics.
I didn't say that Jack = rude. I said that I believe Jack is rude but I do recognize this is a trivial point.
Does the sun really set? Just kidding, Learnme.
What I get from your truths is your attempt to separate human subjectiveness from objective truth. Nothing new for many of us but I definitely see your effort to try to share this idea from a different lens, because as you say, we "yearn to go back to a world which is more deeply rooted in the truth."
As a result, this is what I am seeing from your perspective.
Subjectiveness cannot be a universal truth for two reasons. One, it is a temporary condition. When the human dies, the subjective thoughts die with the human. On the other hand, universal truths are long-lasting. My belief that Jack is rude dies with me, whereas, light traveling faster than anything else will endure. The fact that subjective matter is a temporary condition is not the only reason it is subjective rather than universal. It is also something abstract and lives in the mind of a human. I can hide the fact that I think Jack is rude. Nobody will know. How will they know? (Tik Tok joke) On the other hand, one plus one is something everyone can see for themselves and agree on (even the banks).
Okay, so these two things are very different. But then it appears you are trying to find a relationship between the two with that whole yearning to go back to a world rooted in the truth, which leads to the very essence of what it is to be a human. This is all abstract thinking (of which I am a big fan) and we are right back to subjective thinking, no?
But anyway, I will give my idea of the essence of what it is to be a human. A human is a meaning-seeking species.
Thanks again for some substance here, and I thank you again, because it is hardly anything to take for granted when it comes to others wanting to "contribute" to this thread...
Seems we're mostly on the same page here as usual. Not sure I could put it any more simply than I tried in the first of my Ten Truths.
PS: Just for the record, I was quoting someone else here. "we "yearn to go back to a world which is more deeply rooted in the truth." Though I am a big fan of "the truth and nothing but the truth," those words and explanation about "yearning to go back" were written by someone else who I was quoting.
The first is that in science, objective truths are subject to change. Sure, one plus one will always be two, but at one point scientists said the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that there were no germs, that radium was not harmful to the human body, that smoking was healthy, that the atom was the smallest particle.
The second is that for most people the only thing that matters is subjective truth. The objective truths are what describes our reality, eg. there is gravity, so don't fall, we need air, water and food, so be sure not to be deprived of any of them, etc. Once learned, though, we take these for granted, and don't have to reconcile them or explain them. They have become common knowledge. However our subjective reality is of extreme importance to us, what we do and don't like, what gives us pleasure or pain, what brings happiness or misery.
The third is that our subjective reality includes things that science can't adequately explain to us. These are normally considered paranormal experiences, and if we believe them and have experienced them, we don't question them. These may include premonitions, dreams that foretell a significant event, encounters with spirits, communion with God and spirits.
I have to run, and though I have explained this many times before, perhaps you weren't around for those explanations...
Objective truths or universal truths are not subject to change. It is very important to understand this. They simply DO NOT CHANGE. What changes is what people may perceive to be objective truth. Take your example. The world has never been flat. This is an objective truth. Our realization of this truth is what changed. BIG DIFFERENCE!
Objective truth has nothing to do with what matters to people either. Some could care less. Others want only the objective truth, but the objective truth remains what it is regardless. Again as I tried to point out at the very beginning with my first truth.
Bolded, exactly and that is universal truth. As for the speed of light, that will endure until we know different.
Does the sun really set? Yes and no. Intellectually we know it is the earth that is turning, but our subjective reality is beautiful sunsets and sunrise. This knowingness, of both, is what Advaita calls Brhman, Truth, and the experience of subjective world is Maya, or illusion. It is this Maya, the subjective experience, that causes suffering, and the cure is to realize the truth that is eternal, and to know that eternal truth is what we are in our essence. We are not our experience.
And science is co-opted all the time to do evil things. Hello Dr Birx. Those who said opioids are not addictive and led the FDA lie. Mathematics is the only truth that is Truth. Because it is not words, not subjective, a concept not a material, and never changes.
Reads a bit like the effort of distilling objective truth from what is not, and not badly either...
True as well that science is co-opted all the time for all variety of reasons. This does not negate the positives that I more generally have in mind when I think of how science helps with the "slow maturing of man." Despite all the challenges.
Reminds me a bit of Churchill's famous quote about democracy...
“democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”
Reads a bit like the effort of distilling objective truth from what is not, and not badly either...
True as well that science is co-opted all the time for all variety of reasons. This does not negate the positives that I more generally have in mind when I think of how science helps with the "slow maturing of man." Despite all the challenges.
Reminds me a bit of Churchill's famous quote about democracy...
“democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”
That is the Advaitic reasoning. Churchill had nothing on Advaita, nothing. He believed in democracy only for the white people, and was a racist. You have simplistic and very ignorant and unknowing view of how things work. It is like speaking to a child, but children are endearing, full of curiosity, and teachable.
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yes, if any doubt remains 
