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No one can easily or entirely get around the challenges and obstacles that you well describe, but again universal truth exists regardless. All I am trying to point out is perhaps just an alternative way of thinking as described in my Ten Truths that suggests a preference toward all we can ascertain as the truth of these matters as objectively as possible. Ideally the objectivity counters the bias and prejudice that has caused us to veer from the truth of these matters that has also lead to unnecessary friction and violence. In this case as a result of conflicting religious beliefs. Ancient superstitions that we still see "alive and well" today.
I am not fool enough to think the progress I'm advocating is any easy trick. Heck, there are people who reject this sort of inclination right from the start, but this is the direction we must strive to make the sort of progress I imagine we humans can make over time. Even despite the language barriers and all the others.
Thanks for the comment(s) in any case. It all starts with thinking about the merits of these ideas in the first place. I appreciate that you can at least do this in an adult, civil and in my opinion intelligent manner.
You're welcome, Learnme. I am glad you feel I have contributed in some meaningful way.
I agree with the first two. Disagree with the rest. I'm not sure why you would want to know why, I doubt you are open to change your views. Maybe you want to debate, so you can change others' views, which would be a waste of time. You have posted your beliefs, there's nothing more you can add. There's no one to convince. You can only preach to the choir who share your views.
Suffice it to say your reasoning lacks the experience of others, so you have nothing to discuss about their experiences and beliefs other than your views and opinions, which are irrelevant to them.
I don't agree faith is speculation. For those who really believe it's a matter of experience.
You haven't experienced it so you are like a blind man speculating about the color red. No one can teach true belief, it has to come from within a person based on that person's experience. And it's a waste of time to share those experiences because you would just look for a way to rationalize them to fit your views. I guess you will just have to wait for your own epiphany, but here's no way to tell if it will come or not. Wait and see is the only advice I can give you.
I agree the universe is unknowable. I disagree that science makes it more knowable, it just reveals another layer of an infinite onion, the current view.
Anyone with real faith doesn't reject science. They recognize it's strengths and weaknesses. There is no conflict between belief and science. Only with believers and non-believers. There is no need to pick a side, nor would it make any sense to do so. You have created a false premise so you can argue against it. Face it, you are not a seeker of truth, you just want others to believe you are right. How can you judge the merits of beliefs and opinions about something you already claimed is unknowable? It's nonsensical to try.
That you agree with the first two is quite something given so many people who couldn't even do that...
You guess as to why I encourage discussion about this topic and you get it wrong, though true I don't suspect anyone is going to change their mind about anything of consequence here. See my "Cement Theory" thread that attempts an explanation about all that too.
My reasoning lacks the experience of others? Of course my experiences are essentially irrelevant to others as a general rule, but here again we're throwing out generalities rather than specifics that prevent an intelligent discussion about all this from continuing.
More specifically, however, you claim "anyone with real faith doesn't reject science." I'm not at all sure that is true, but many have rejected many an aspect about science that typically only comes from people of faith. Easy to see what I mean by reading many of the comments posted in this thread and others that throw science under the bus of imperfection for the sake of giving faith more weight by comparison.
I can easily judge the merits of beliefs and opinions about all this just as you are obviously expressing in this last comment of yours. How we're all to judge is a personal matter of course, but judge we will. Judge we must in order to establish whatever truth of these matters we can and thereby make the kind of progress that helped us out of the Dark Ages.
I have not seen any post where he has stated he might be wrong and others might be right either. He's actually pretty condescending, fairly passive aggressive, in his guise as a seeker of truth. Kind of a troll if the truth be told.
To what lows will a person stoop in order to refute opinion different from there's? What a crock!
I always enjoy reading your posts. You have said everything I have felt but was unable to vocalize it adequately. Maybe I lacked the patience to do so as well. I hope this is helpful for LearnMe.
About as helpful as a snake in a sleeping bag...
No surprise to me either, who tends to agree with these sorts of smear tactics. It should be helpful to all of us to see first hand how this works. Over and over again.
Thank you. I don't believe LearnMe wants to learn anything.
Wrong again, but what seems clear is what you want to do. Why someone goes to such effort to be a part of such a thread which I invite everyone to do only to stoop to the insults that you do is truly beyond me. Could it be you are simply proving how "the truth hurts?" That and/or how some people "can't handle the truth?" Bit of both I think, and a good amount of childish attempt to address this topic rather than in a bit more mature civil manner.
History is the last place to seek truth. Ask the Palestinians how history has treated them. History is written by the victors is not just a truism, that is how it IS. You don't like it, rewrite it to suit the present powers. You don't like it? Silence those other voices, and write THEIR histories and publish them as the truth, because you can. Nobody knows what really happened unless you were on the spot where it happened when it happened. Even then you only know what you saw. We will only know bits and pieces of events.
What we can do with those pieces is establish facts so we can obtain justice. Justice is based on fairness, compassion, what is a fair punishment, what is equitable division. Not truth. Truth is fickle.
History is the last place to seek truth?
How tired I get trying to deal with your ridiculous misrepresentations of what you simply refuse to consider without just wanting to pick away at argument all your own. Before it was some nonsense about how history is "not just about dates." Please have mercy...
Just because you insist on dismissing all we can learn from science, history, the news and all else with human finger prints on them does NOT mean that others can't or should not carefully consider, assess and draw proper conclusion about these topics. You are something like a court jester interfering with others who are attempting due process to arrive at the truth of these matters DESPITE the inherent challenges. Including the challenges posed by people like you who are forever claiming we can do little more than stick our heads up where the sun don't shine.
From WIkipedia. "Troll: In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory ... messages in an online community, with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception."
Now consider the OP's "8th TRUTH" posted in this Religion and Spirituality forum: "EIGHT: ... Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress. Science encourages inquiry thus expanding Man's awareness and enlightenment. Faith typically deems any question about God's existence as evil in nature, not to be tolerated..."
Doesn't the above definition of trolling fit the OP's post?
I'm okay with whatever accusations as long as at least SOME intelligent discussion and/or explanation is provided, and here there is at least something...
At least another look at more I explain even if not as well as I would like. Fact is, it's people like you who have helped me formulate the truth about what I explain in my 8th Truth, and most certainly the 10th.
Perhaps you have not personally encountered people who truly believe any such argument against faith or god is somehow the work of the devil? Evil in nature? If not, you really need to get out more and/or just spend some time reading all the comments posted in this forum that claim that exact same thing one way or another.
You may be right, but I haven't seen anyone punished for calling someone "kind of a troll" if that person posted inflammatory and condescending comments as the OP has. On the one hand he states religion (which he attributes to mere speculation) brings people together, but then he states it retards man's progress, while science expands enlightenment and awareness. That provoked an emotional response from me. The OP's posts put down religion and spirituality rather just discussing it.
A thread going on over 60 pages now would suggest you are not as right about all you think you are, and if I am condescending or a troll, I would hate to think what describes you. To keep it civil as I prefer to do, I'll refrain from further expressing my opinion about you personally. Something you apparently prefer to do over all else.
I have long considered the bold characteristic of LearnMe's posting.
"Peas in a pod."
Coming from you and "the usual suspects," these consistent insults from a choice few people over and over again is, well, just that. Consistent and nothing I have not come to expect by now. Over and over from the same few. Not only in this thread but others too. Funny given all the comments about you too, Mystic, that you seem to ignore while you engage in the same gutter tactics.
Reason infers personal wants and desires. When we say, what is the reason for doing this, there is almost always human want and desire. Sure, we might say, let's listen to all possibilities of why this happens and in this way attempt to be objective, but we only do this when we want to.
And you shouldn't. Human conflict has been a big motivator for progress. As you said yourself below, humans cannot know all that exists. When a new generation is born, they seek and learn "truths". Sometimes the truths of others resonate with them. Sometimes they don't and they ignore it. Then they cherry-pick the parts that support their beliefs and cherry-pick the parts that give them conflict as you have done to my post.
If I say humans do a particular action because it is human to do so, this is simply stating a fact about humans. You decided that my statement had negative implications, which is typical human behavior. You decided to cherry-pick a particular part of my post and assign a meaning to it that I did not intend. Again, a typical human behavior. And while it sounds like I am trying my best to stay objective, it will not stay that way. The reason is that one way to make progress, especially in a conversation between two people, any fact that is mentioned needs to have meaning and implications.
Thank you for elevating the discussion back to a bit higher level, and my apologies if I did yet another very human thing to do...
I may have misread you or misunderstood you, but very specifically I was addressing this statement; "I can't really fault them because I find that a very human thing to do."
I was specific before and I'm trying to be very specific again with hopes this isn't considered "cherry picking." In fact it is this sort of thing very precisely that much of my Ten Truths attempts to address. I'd call it more a focus on considering a specific statement of yours, in your own words, that I don't so much agree with among so much else you explain that I do agree with.
Again perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I find a great deal of things humans do that I fault them for doing. A great many "very human things to do" that I fault humans for doing. I suspect you do too, and ultimately we agree about this as well, but if I'm wrong again. Please do further explain if you care to bother...
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