Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
yes, its sounds bad. its like when I say the 20% sound incoherent to the 80%-ers. it sounds really bad. But its the truth too. but the ones who know it doesn't mean "better" are the ones that I hang with. In fact, its a curse more than not. I wish I could just in on the anti-god camp and not have to think. it seems so much easier.
damn them christian's, we will show them. it just seems so much easier.
The difference between Religion and Spirituality is central to their differential effects on people and the quality of life in a society. Religion reflects a conviction and dedication to a set of beliefs ABOUT God that are central to their understanding of God and their attitude toward how others should relate to God. Spirituality reflects a conviction and dedication to God, per se, and focuses on personal access to God not on how others in society relate to God.
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Until you can learn to separate religion and spirituality, you'll continue to be confused. TRUE. One can be one and not the other. Religion dictates, and instills fear. Spirituality is an innate yearning to find answers, to reach for something bigger than us, and does NOT require religion. Not always but religion can be hindrance to spirituality
Religion shows up as mostly just another group of people tied by a common idea, like country clubs, political groups, etc. That's why most churches look as messed up as any other group of people. It's not going to result in any different way of life, any real freedom. It's going to look like the rest of the problematic world.TRUE. Organized religion requires membership before one can be part of the community. If not you don't count.
Spirituality is the actual connection between us and what's out there. It's quiet, introspective, and personal. It's above and beyond all the lowly things that keep us tied to mankind, problems, failure, and decay. The connection with it is an unique as our own DNA and fingerprints. Being spiritual = being non-religious.Absolutely true. Spirituality frees us. Religion binds us, and divides.
Religion tries to falsely make us as though we're to think and act the same. Spirituality reflects our individuality, and honors that. True. You are free to think and sort out for yourself your INDIVIDUAL relationship with the Universe. Religion does no have that freedom
This post absolutely resonates with me. Thank you.
Until you can learn to separate religion and spirituality, you'll continue to be confused.
Religion shows up as mostly just another group of people tied by a common idea, like country clubs, political groups, etc. That's why most churches look as messed up as any other group of people. It's not going to result in any different way of life, any real freedom. It's going to look like the rest of the problematic world.
Spirituality is the actual connection between us and what's out there. It's quiet, introspective, and personal. It's above and beyond all the lowly things that keep us tied to mankind, problems, failure, and decay. The connection with it is an unique as our own DNA and fingerprints. Being spiritual = being non-religious.
Religion tries to falsely make us as though we're to think and act the same. Spirituality reflects our individuality, and honors that.
This view is summarized in my post below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The difference between Religion and Spirituality is central to their differential effects on people and the quality of life in a society. Religion reflects a conviction and dedication to a set of beliefs ABOUT God that are central to their understanding of God and their attitude toward how others should relate to God. Spirituality reflects a conviction and dedication to God, per se, and focuses on personal access to God not on how others in society relate to God.
The religious in this world have an All Powerful, All Knowing, All Loving God on their side that answers prayers. If this God that answered prayers and looked after his followers actually existed wouldn't their quality of life be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the non-religious?
The question hunting me is strongly related: Why is it that there is no fundamental difference in loving and caring behavor between Godbelievers and others? Surely I know some really good guys - but on both sides.
Your question (better live quality as a result of believing) is one that has nothing to do with a loving and caring person. It is a matter of "what is in it for ME, what will I get?"
The question encludes something problematic: Prayers might be a substitute for one's own acting. (If you pray for something you could get by your own doing, you see subconciously God as a butler you even haven't to pay.)
The basic dogmas of a religion should support loving and caring behavor and promote a good heart.
But, If you believe there is a God who will let you into heaven just for faith: your reasons are egoistical, you simply want to be saved.
How can the imagination of God (no matter his existence) help you to be a better person, if you want to value him highest, but cannot describe Him without contradicting attributes. Try to follow someone (big idol) who will punish you with eternal hellfire, while (how?) you try to imagine him as a good guy. How should that psychologically work?
How shall we be the ones, fighting for a better world? How does religion help me ... while I'm waiting to come into heaven?
Interesting is the distinction between religion and spirituality.
Religion is a system of sentences what to believe (rationally). Spirituality is inward emotional and rational experience (difficult to speak about). The dark point: What you perceive is normally within your system of religious sentences. And it is an extreme big task to put spirituality first.
The religious in this world have an All Powerful, All Knowing, All Loving God on their side that answers prayers. If this God that answered prayers and looked after his followers actually existed wouldn't their quality of life be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the non-religious?
Yet all I see are Disease, Divorce, Depression, etc all kinds of suffering inflict the religious just as much as the non-religious.
If this type of God existed why do we not have undeniable evidence that the lives of the religious are just that much better than the non-religious?
You could argue that due to your faith that your personal quality of life has increased but how is that any different from just being spiritual or investing your time in your own personal development?
Amazing, isn't it?
God gave the Israelites very specific instructions of how to live. He told them if they obeyed him they'd live, and prosper. If not, they'd suffer.
Did they? Nah. They didn't. They ignored him. And eventually, they were taken into exile, conquered by Assyrian, and Babylon.
So why would you believe that things would be different today? If we did obey God, and we didn't do the things that are destructive, but lived lives that glorified him, life WOULD work better. But we don't. Why? Because we are like sheep that like to wander.
The good news is that the Good Shepherd calls his own, and he saves us from the judgment. Anyone that trusts in Jesus will be saved, and will enjoy eternity in his presence, where none of the bad things of this world exists.
So a god who answers prayers and looks after his followers would not give people a better life?
He does give them a better life. A vastly better life. But not necessarily a "better life" in the sense being suggested here. Quite the opposite. This is precisely why the prosperity gospel is so widely condemned within Christianity itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
So all these christians who have extramarital affairs, abuse their kids, drink or use drugs, curse, etc. ... those experiences differ from those of a non-believer who does the same things? Hmmmmmm. I have trouble wrapping my head around that idea.
No, those are Christians continuing to sin, continuing to struggle with their fallen human nature. No surprise there. How they cope, hopefully through the conviction of their sin and their realization of their need for repentance and God's grace, is likely to be very different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
What makes you so angry?
I don't think I'm the slightest bit angry. I simply don't suffer fools gladly. Why doesn't Thoreau or anyone else address any of the questions I posed in a rational manner ... hmmmm? If I strike you as "angry," perhaps you should be asking a fair number of the participants here "Why are you so constantly filled with such all-consuming rage?" What emotion better characterizes these forums in their entirety than anger?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
So you agree that belief in God and prayer does not equate to better quality of life over the non -religious?
See my response to Harry Diogenes directly above.
Quote:
So your claim is that Christians suffer less than the non-religious?
Hey, Jesus himself wept over Lazarus. Christians experience the trials of life in the same manner as anyone else. But through the Holy Spirit, Christians also have a peace and joy that transcends the suffering.
Quote:
All you did was link an opinion article quoting some studies that are behind paywalls. If you want me to take your responses seriously you need to provide actual data that I can review.
Ah, the familiar game. As if you are actually interested in reviewing any data. You simply made a dumb statement and I called you on it. Some of the studies are linked in the article. It's not my job to educate you.
Quote:
And how exactly is the quality of life better for a Christian than someone that is simply just spiritual?
If the bottom line issue is not what does it do for me then why pray?
"Just spiritual" means nothing. You are either in communion with Truth or you are not. For Christians, God is Truth. We do not believe the working of the Holy Spirit is something we imagine or generate internally. We believe it is real.
Prayer is not about "getting things." It is not about "make me healthy and wealthy and give me a new Ram 3500 4x4 while you're at it." Prayer is about communion with God, about worshipping and giving thanks, about sharing troubles and concerns, about yielding to his will.
They claim that God is love but can not even bear tolerance towards others, especially if you do not believe exactly like they do. I'm somehow still shocked by the anger and hatred evangelical or conservative Christians have towards liberal and moderate Christians that the anger they display towards atheists or no Christians like yourself is to be expected.
Ah, the "tolerance" game! Thoreau's post to which I responded was just so oozingly "tolerant," wasn't it? Wait a minute - why doesn't your tolerance extend to my reply to Thoreau? Are you selectively tolerant?
I've got news for you: Warm-and-fluffy "niceness" is not inevitably a part of doing unto others. "Tolerance" of anything and everything is not part of doing unto others at all.
If someone makes a series of silly and irrational statements, I reserve the right to call them on it. If that strikes you as intolerant, angry and hate-filled, that's your problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
A good way to detect religion is when argument and arguing comes up. Like politics, religion almost always ends up drawing lines in the sand: us vs. them. The religious define themselves, with the inevitable result being a contrast of who "isn't", and then creating an issue out of it. Interestingly, atheists too can be religious in their attitude.
Spirituality has no need to take sides, and no need for argument. It understands how different each of us is, and respects that, and is at peace with it.
Which is precisely why "spirituality" has no meaning. There is no such thing as free-floating "spirituality." The us-versus-them of religion is Truth versus Untruth. Without any system of underlying Truth to anchor it, "spirituality" is just ball of postmodern fluff. If it makes you feel good about yourself, I don't care - but don't kid yourself that you're saying anything substantive by claiming to be "just soooo much more spiritual than those icky religious people."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
but you are doing exactly and precisely all those things yourself, in post #4 (shown below)
you draw a line in the sand "us vs them" when you advocate "separate religion and spirituality"
you "define yourselves" and contrast who isn't, and insist the only way to be spiritual is to be non-religious
and you "create an issue out of it" by calling other paths "confused" "messed up" "problematic"
There is nothing "quiet and introspective" about claiming superiority over other paths to the divine. your blanket dismissal and denigration of religion does not honor or reflect anyone's individuality. your actions and words do not demonstrate that at all. rather they match exactly what you claim to object to. it is a case of "you spot it, you got it."
BINGO to the nth degree! If I am "angry," this is why - the utter absurdity of participants here saying the things they do with complete impunity, urged on by their cheerleaders, while blatantly exhibiting EXACTLY THE SAME attitudes they criticize in others.
I'm still waiting for Thoreau or one of his sycophants to address my simple questions: How do you know the things you claim to know? What is the basis of the sweeping generalizations you so confidently make? How does what you say meet the test of rationality? You don't get a pass, at least not from me, just because you're "spiritual."
yeah, when talking to Christians I ask "what would you do if you found out Jesus was a man?" the ones that say "it doesn't matter" I can talk to. The ones that say I would quit, I have a lot more trouble talking to.
When I was in college, my Philosophy of Religion professor, a Bultmann cultist, said it should make no difference to a Christian if he could travel back in time and see the disciples stealing Jesus' body from the tomb. I thought he was insane then, and I still do. If the Resurrection could be disproved to a scientific certainty, my Christianity would end a nanosecond later.
Christianity is either True or it is False. If Jesus was "just a man," it is False. Paul was astute enough to realize that. If Jesus was just a man, why would I or anyone else want anything to do with its truth claims?
Since we're talking in generalities, I guess I can say: Anyone who says "it wouldn't matter" is not a Christian.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Religious vs Non Religious- Quality of Life
