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Have you NEVER had anything happen in your life, that peaked your suspicion just a little of the possibility of Divine intervention?
I can't help but get the feeling that you go above and beyond the call of duty to oppose even the remote possibility of God. You can't deny our existance alone is quite amazing in itself, let alone the earth, sky, space, etc.
Science is a wonderful thing, but will never prove what was before. Before meaning "In the beginning". It is with the things within, and on the earth ,that we are able to do scientific tasks. We have been supplied with all things for our survival.
Even Darwin admitted he could be wrong. Hitler just used his theory and other to justify in his sick mind that he could breed the perfect humans. Anything less perfect than himself (in my opinion) was eventually going to get destroyed. Christian scientists and athiest scientists and "I don't have an opinion" scientists have disproved much of the evolution theories in recent years. Not sure what your theory really is but I assume it's all about evolution.
Why NO room for margin of error on YOUR part. I'm not judging and spiting on you, I don't agree with you on most things so far as I have read, I just would like to understand what you and others like you (in things I've read) leave NO margin for error when it comes to God?? Humor me some more??
By the way, I'm not the best speller in the world, nor am I the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but it does not take much to see that something more is going on with YOU. It appears to be a lot of anger or defience or something.....It actually makes me concerned for you. Sorry, can't help but be honest with what I'm feeling sometimes.
Thanks for listening.
Hitler used Social Darwinism which is different than Evolution by natural selection. Scientists have more revised the theory of evolution. There may be parts that are disproven as new observations come in, although that doesn't disprove evolution, it just changes it. There haven't been any major discoveries that have actually disproven evolution by natural selection.
I only believe in claims that can be found empirically so I tend to be suspicious of the claim of divine intervention. I wouldn't leave no margin of error when it comes to the belief in a deity. Someone also can't leave no margin of error when it comes to claims like the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Invisible Pink Unicorns since there is a slight possibility that they exist, they just don't believe they exist because there's no empirical evidence to support their existence, it's the same with the belief in god.
Last edited by agnostic soldier; 08-17-2008 at 09:10 PM..
Literally, for there to be an object, some force has to put it there somehow. The universe is no different. Rather it was God or the big bang, or both, something came before us.
Hitler used Social Darwinism which is different than Evolution by natural selection. Scientists have more revised the theory of evolution. There may be parts that are disproven as new observations come in, although that doesn't disprove evolution, it just changes it. There haven't been any major discoveries that have actually disproven evolution by natural selection.
I only believe in claims that can be found empirically so I tend to be suspicious of the claim of divine intervention. I wouldn't leave no margin of error when it comes to the belief in a deity. Someone also can't leave no margin of error when it comes to claims like the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Invisible Pink Unicorns since there is a slight possibility that they exist, they just don't believe they exist because there's no empirical evidence to support their existence, it's the same with the belief in god.
"Some people have said that the three men who most influenced the modern world were Darwin, Marx, and Freud. Richard Wurmbrand, a former prisoner of the communists for many years, wrote Marx and Satan. Marx had in his youth been a professing Christian, having been brought up in what was at least a nominally Christian family. He once wrote an essay about life in Christ. But Wurmbrand tells of how at the end of his schooling there was a great change in him. "Shortly after Marx received his certificate, something mysterious happened in his life."
Marx became profoundly and passionately anti-religious, and wrote in a poem, "I wish to avenge myself against the One Who rules above."
The above is just a exerpt (but backs a summary of quite a few documentary I have studied over the past 10 months). I'm only using it to explain that Darwin & Marx, in my opinion, in short, were just trying desperately to disprove creationism. In fact I personally feel for Marx, it was more of an obsession. I get the impression for Darwin, it was more of a passion, possibly to ease his mind for the clear answer of which is the correct answer. Without trying to find the documention right now, I believe it was documented that prior to Darwin's death, he expressed HIS regret and error on evolution being the answer. I will find it if need be.
I feel Hitler just grabbed and used whomever and whatever he could to justify his sick agenda and used both Darwin/Marx to trick the people. And when the abortion centers were started, I feel it was just another "trick" to eliminate more of the race that did not measure up to Hitler's "Pure Breed Human". This, of course is an entirely different conversation, but does tie in to Hitler's agenda.
Anyway, I guess that part of history can be hashed and hashed and we come up with "half a dozen of this, and six of the other".
My point? A book over 2000 years old with documentation of Jesus, God, miracles, etc is being ignored in this conversation; (the Bible).
Fairytale characters you mention are not really fair in this as it seams the world has narrowed this supject down to 1) evolution? or 2) Creationism?
Creationism on the other hand, has valid documentation from the Bible, Testimony, Witnesses and so on. It can't be just ignored.
I asked you previously: Have "you" NEVER had anything happen in YOUR life, that peaked your suspicion just a little of the possibility of Divine intervention? I understand from your writings to me you don't deny your suspicion has been peaked, but have you had anything happen to you personally?
We both know where I stand, as I think I have made it clear. I have a nagging curiosity of what makes others such as yourself so passionate to disprove God. What has prompted this type of passion in YOU personally; if I may ask?? And what about my question above?
I do want you to know that I appreciate very much your ability to discuss this rationaly with me, it's much appreciated. Hopefuly I have not provoked you to anger, as that is NOT my intention.
Thanks again.
Last edited by Bookkeeper; 08-18-2008 at 04:19 AM..
Reason: Copy/Paste from Quotes messed up margins.
Prove there is a god, but no bible quotes, please. You would have to prove the bible is truth first, and no one has been able to do that.
I have not ever met one person who could prove there was a god, but they insist there is one.
LOL...first off cupcake, it's spelled GOD. Secondly, why do we need to prove Him to you? That's a completely personal thing that you have to do yourself.
I know God is real..and I know He exists from my personal and very spiritual experiences and I am so grateful that He has been in my life. If you haven't had these same experiences...or don't have a lot of faith..I wouldn't expect you to believe in Him.
Prove there is a god, but no bible quotes, please. You would have to prove the bible is truth first, and no one has been able to do that.
Not so fast, skippy.
Here's what one of your more intelligent athiests recently said,
Quote:
This is one of the bibles that I read, cover to cover. Oh, yea--some atheist read the bible. I do, because it is part of our world history and culture. Also, it has interesting stories, poetry and verses.
There's much truth contained in the Bible. Disprove that?
My proof of God has come to me on my one month quest to prove that God Is. I'll go a step further and tell you WHERE God is too. Deep down with inside of you is the fundamental ideal of God. It may be buried by worship of other things, by prejudice, by deep skepticism; but in some form it is there. We individuals have to make this journey on our own, if so inclined. The great thing about the US of A is that we get the freedom to do this or not.
Whenever I go down the path of God is not or simply don't go down the path of God IS, then I eventually become god (with a little "g".) This is where most of us wind up most of the time anyway, even many of the "religious" folks. Then God puts a flamethrower up our "UGHGHGHGH$$" and we awaken for a moment.
I would go as far as to say it is impossible for us, as the created, to define or comprehend That which created us. This may be corny, but does a wave know it is of the entire ocean? Everybody is so quick to believe in such things as electricity, for which there are wonderful equations and assumptions to understand it, but no visual proof. Science has proved that visual proof is the weakest. Although, when you flip the light switch, the power reveals itself. The more scientists study the laws of nature, they find that outward appearances are not inward reality at all. So to make mention of an "All Powerful Guiding Intelligence" is to speak nonsense.
Well that's right. To experience God, you've got to be out of your head.
To any of you Athiests who chose God IS NOT and are firm on that, that's fine. That's what you'll get. Guaranteed. Once I considered my own conception of God and laid down my moral and philosophical convictions, I began to experience God.
I have a nagging curiosity of what makes others such as yourself so passionate to disprove God. What has prompted this type of passion in YOU personally; if I may ask?? And what about my question above?
You act is if it's something we live our lives for. It's not. Sure there are some people that like debates, but nobody puts the 'passion' you speak of into it. For one thing, fundamentalists are always trying to convert people, so some of us figure if they can't answer our questions, then they'll just shut up and leave us alone. Remember that by trying to convert people you're only doing the right thing in your opinion. Others like me don't believe in your god and are not interested.
Here's what one of your more intelligent athiests recently said,
There's much truth contained in the Bible. Disprove that?
My proof of God has come to me on my one month quest to prove that God Is. I'll go a step further and tell you WHERE God is too. Deep down with inside of you is the fundamental ideal of God. It may be buried by worship of other things, by prejudice, by deep skepticism; but in some form it is there. We individuals have to make this journey on our own, if so inclined. The great thing about the US of A is that we get the freedom to do this or not.
Whenever I go down the path of God is not or simply don't go down the path of God IS, then I eventually become god (with a little "g".) This is where most of us wind up most of the time anyway, even many of the "religious" folks. Then God puts a flamethrower up our "UGHGHGHGH$$" and we awaken for a moment.
I would go as far as to say it is impossible for us, as the created, to define or comprehend That which created us. This may be corny, but does a wave know it is of the entire ocean? Everybody is so quick to believe in such things as electricity, for which there are wonderful equations and assumptions to understand it, but no visual proof. Science has proved that visual proof is the weakest. Although, when you flip the light switch, the power reveals itself. The more scientists study the laws of nature, they find that outward appearances are not inward reality at all. So to make mention of an "All Powerful Guiding Intelligence" is to speak nonsense.
Well that's right. To experience God, you've got to be out of your head.
To any of you Athiests who chose God IS NOT and are firm on that, that's fine. That's what you'll get. Guaranteed. Once I considered my own conception of God and laid down my moral and philosophical convictions, I began to experience God.
I'm alive. So there's your proof.
There's testable evidence that things like electricity exist. Just because someone can't see something electricity, they can test it scientifically to prove it exists. Where's the testable evidence of 'god.'
You act is if it's something we live our lives for. It's not. Sure there are some people that like debates, but nobody puts the 'passion' you speak of into it. For one thing, fundamentalists are always trying to convert people, so some of us figure if they can't answer our questions, then they'll just shut up and leave us alone. Remember that by trying to convert people you're only doing the right thing in your opinion. Others like me don't believe in your god and are not interested.
Haaziq,
As much as I appreciate debates once in a while, my questions were not directed to you, nor am I trying to "convert" people. There comes a time in life, when at times we try to convert someone, and realize once you give them the information, if they reject it, it's now on their own shoulders.
My question was directed to someone I have been chating with that does not have a chip on his shoulder and seems quite content to help ME understand some curiosity I have with the mind of a non believer. He is fully aware of that, and does not seem disturbed. But, as he stated, even he leaves room for error. If he is offended by the questions I have asked him, I'm sure he will inform me loud and clear, and it will be at that time I will not bother him. But, thank you for your input, I will remember to leave you out of this Q & A session that I have been having with someone else.
Take Care and relax, I promise, this is not about you personally.
There's testable evidence that things like electricity exist. Just because someone can't see something electricity, they can test it scientifically to prove it exists. Where's the testable evidence of 'god.'
Right. I've got a Fluke 77 meter that will tell you the AC voltage, DC voltage, current in mA, current up to 10A which is fused, and it will measure resistance up to about 40 Meg ohms or 4.0E7Ω. I've got a Meg Ohmmer that will read up to 1E14Ω. To most people, that's OL or "Open Circuit". But I have "faith" that it's there, because I have the test equipment to "see" it. But what is an ohm? Can you hold one in your hand? Can you squeeze one? Can you do the same with a volt? How about a farad? Do these things really exist or are they just models? If they're models, are they perfect models? Where did these equations come from? Did these scientists just dig these equations out of the dirt, or were they ideas floating in the air?
Benjamin Franklin claims so. He believed that he existed at a time when these discoveries and inventions of his day were bound to be discovered at that particular time. He believed that if he didn't stumble onto them at the time that he did, someone else would have. This points to God as the Source of all things.
Way back in ancient cultures and since, we were very entrenched in the spirutual realm, while the material realm was pratically non-existent. It was dangerous back then to question the statis quo or to have an open mind. Scientific experimentation and empirical studies were non-existent. In fact, you could be put to death for suggesting that the world wasn't flat.
Fast-forward to today; the realm of the material is in full swing and the realm of the spirit is taking a back seat.
But in the final analysis, are we really more advanced in medicine, culture, architecture, astrology, etc. than in the ancient times- say of the Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, Mayans, etc.?
I don't think so. I think our ancestors did a lot of the work two, three, four, five centuries ago and beyond and we're merely playing around with that stuff from an application standpoint. We went through the industrial age, now the computer age. What's next? The cleave-age?
We've gotten nowhere really in the last 50 years. Well, the remote control is pretty cool. I want to develop the remote control that will change the street light and mute people. That would be pretty cool.
But where are your damn aliens? Where's the mothership? Why absolutely NO superior beings or any sign of them? Why do you athiest have so much faith in them?
Here, I'm gonna ask a favor of you. Make me a fish. Just one little fishy. From scratch. You can even take an already existing dead one. Bring him back to life. Or make one from the dirt, or whatever, and breathe the breath of life into him. Tell me whose gonna win the SuperBowl. How many hurricanes are gonna hit the US of A this year? What are the lotto numbers gonna be?
Show me a way to make a highway out of slag (ferrous metal byproducts that are plentiful and cheap and look like gravel, but are metallic) instead of gravel and make our vehicles' tires out of a magnetic material and create a perpetual momentum machine that not only sails along effortessly, but also completes a circuit to charge stored batteries and eliminate the need for petro. Now where did I get this idea?
PS: I pray a lot. Pray for me and maybe I'll make this dream a reality someday. How's that fish comin'?
If I could prove to you that the distance of the earth, its circumference, distance from other bodies in the solar system, the galaxy, the universe are perfectly within proportion to some immutable laws and that the whole thing was "constructed", "architected" and "assembled" by some huge beings or forces, would you not stand in awe just the slightest bit? I, for one am.
Last edited by McGowdog; 08-18-2008 at 11:53 PM..
Reason: add
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