Prove There's A God (hell, myth, atheist, agnostic)

[Huckleberry3911948]

there is a god bek i am not dead.
there is a god bek stronger better men have fallen harder never to rise again.
there is a god bek i kept on going when i was on empty.
there is a god bek i made it when i had already given up.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

,
The above is just a exerpt (but backs a summary of quite a few documentary I have studied over the past 10 months). I'm only using it to explain that Darwin & Marx, in my opinion, in short, were just trying desperately to disprove creationism. In fact I personally feel for Marx, it was more of an obsession. I get the impression for Darwin, it was more of a passion, possibly to ease his mind for the clear answer of which is the correct answer.

I really don't know what gives you that impression, the idea that we now call Darwinism was roaming around the mind of scientists for a while but no one had delved into it properly until Darwin came along. He went on a 4 year trip and when he came back he put all of his research and made the origin of species. However he didn't release it immediately because he was afraid of backlash from the church. Twenty years later, it was rumours that some other bright biologists were also making progress on it and about to release their findings that finally prompted Darwin to release his book(and receiver the very predictable reaction from the church).

There was no passion to go against the church, this is just a poor agnostic man who loved curiosity over dogmatism and just like Galileo, he had to suffer for it.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Without trying to find the documention right now, I believe it was documented that prior to Darwin's death, he expressed HIS regret and error on evolution being the answer. I will find it if need be.

No, the story you are probably looking for is the creationist claim that Darwin told Elizabeth hope(lady hope) that he repented and he told her that evolution was false right before he died.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

My point? A book over 2000 years old with documentation of Jesus, God, miracles, etc is being ignored in this conversation; (the Bible).
Fairytale characters you mention are not really fair in this as it seams the world has narrowed this supject down to 1) evolution? or 2) Creationism?

What and ignore other possibilities? What about all the thousands of other creation stories that exists:
Creation Stories from around the world (http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8/1-1creationandenvironment/c-story.htm - broken link)

The problem with thinking it's only Evolution vs Creationism is that it creates a false dichotomy where one thinks that to prove your stance right all you need to do is show the other stance wrong. It's not that simple which is why arguments for your beliefs should be built on positive evidence as opposed to simply trying to find holes on the other.

"If evolution is wrong then creationism must be right" is a logical fallacy.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

,
Creationism on the other hand, has valid documentation from the Bible, Testimony, Witnesses and so on. It can't be just ignored.

In science all that is rejected because it's build on an argument of authority(another fallacy) and since unfortunately nobody witnessed creation so we have to look at the earth(gods second bible per se) for answers.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

I asked you previously: Have "you" NEVER had anything happen in YOUR life, that peaked your suspicion just a little of the possibility of Divine intervention? I understand from your writings to me you don't deny your suspicion has been peaked, but have you had anything happen to you personally?

I know this isn't directed at me but if you want the input of another atheist, my answer is yes I have. There have been many ironic twists in my life(both nice twists bad twists) and the lives of people I know that sometimes I think there is a being out there who is only there to cause mischief and get kicks out of peoples reaction. Of course I reject such a notion on the grounds that it's just a way to blame something else for life not always being dandy.

[Bookkeeper]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

I really don't know what gives you that impression, the idea that we now call Darwinism was roaming around the mind of scientists for a while but no one had delved into it properly until Darwin came along. He went on a 4 year trip and when he came back he put all of his research and made the origin of species. However he didn't release it immediately because he was afraid of backlash from the church. Twenty years later, it was rumours that some other bright biologists were also making progress on it and about to release their findings that finally prompted Darwin to release his book(and receiver the very predictable reaction from the church).

There was no passion to go against the church, this is just a poor agnostic man who loved curiosity over dogmatism and just like Galileo, he had to suffer for it.


Bookkeeper
Coo....
I don't and never said that I think Darwin had passion to go against the chruch. His passion was to find the answer for himself, but he clearly was looking for an answer.


No, the story you are probably looking for is the creationist claim that Darwin told Elizabeth hope(lady hope) that he repented and he told her that evolution was false right before he died.


Bookkeeper
Yes Coo...that is the story I was looking for. But my point was that Darwin confided that evolution was wrong. I brought him and Marx up in this because this seems to be where the struggle (Publicly) began. It's history, not my opinion.


What and ignore other possibilities? What about all the thousands of other creation stories that exists:
Creation Stories from around the world (http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8/1-1creationandenvironment/c-story.htm - broken link)

The problem with thinking it's only Evolution vs Creationism is that it creates a false dichotomy where one thinks that to prove your stance right all you need to do is show the other stance wrong. It's not that simple which is why arguments for your beliefs should be built on positive evidence as opposed to simply trying to find holes on the other.

"If evolution is wrong then creationism must be right" is a logical fallacy.


Bookkeeper
Coo...
Again, Evolution vs creationism is what the world currently and prior seems to have narrowed this down to. It's an enormous issue in schools, creationism for the most part has been banned, and evolution has not. These are facts, and history...not MY personal opinions. If you want MY opinion, It has never crossed my mind that there is no God. Ever since I was little, I have believed in God. and YOU don't. Get over it.


In science all that is rejected because it's build on an argument of authority(another fallacy) and since unfortunately nobody witnessed creation so we have to look at the earth(gods second bible per se) for answers.


Bookkeeper
Coo...
I don't agree with you, and I 100% believe in God. There is no doubt and I'm not confused and I don't wonder of any other options. He has complete authority, but gives us free will. Most things that bite us in the butt here and there, are usually as a result of a poor decision somewhere along the line. We learn by it, and gain Wisdom.


I know this isn't directed at me but if you want the input of another atheist, my answer is yes I have. There have been many ironic twists in my life(both nice twists bad twists) and the lives of people I know that sometimes I think there is a being out there who is only there to cause mischief and get kicks out of peoples reaction. Of course I reject such a notion on the grounds that it's just a way to blame something else for life not always being dandy.

Bookkeeper
Coo...
I'm glad you reject such a notion, and that you take full responsibility for your own actions. I don't agree with you of the possibility that a being out there toys with us. I don't really know the extent of your studies in life, you appear to know your history, but if you have never read the Bible, maybe for the sake of history, you should consider it. It may put the notion of a being causing mischief to get their kicks out of the back of your mind.
Just for the record, I have not narrowed anything down to Creationism vs Evolution.....the world is doing that all by itself. Listen to the news, read the paper, it's one of the biggest problems we are facing within our own country, children, schools, politics, and so on....I don't feel the need to narrow anything, we both know MY feelings. Thanks for the talk.

[agnostic soldier]

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

"Some people have said that the three men who most influenced the modern world were Darwin, Marx, and Freud. Richard Wurmbrand, a former prisoner of the communists for many years, wrote Marx and Satan. Marx had in his youth been a professing Christian, having been brought up in what was at least a nominally Christian family. He once wrote an essay about life in Christ. But Wurmbrand tells of how at the end of his schooling there was a great change in him. "Shortly after Marx received his certificate, something mysterious happened in his life."
Marx became profoundly and passionately anti-religious, and wrote in a poem, "I wish to avenge myself against the One Who rules above."

The above is just a exerpt (but backs a summary of quite a few documentary I have studied over the past 10 months). I'm only using it to explain that Darwin & Marx, in my opinion, in short, were just trying desperately to disprove creationism. In fact I personally feel for Marx, it was more of an obsession. I get the impression for Darwin, it was more of a passion, possibly to ease his mind for the clear answer of which is the correct answer. Without trying to find the documention right now, I believe it was documented that prior to Darwin's death, he expressed HIS regret and error on evolution being the answer. I will find it if need be.

I feel Hitler just grabbed and used whomever and whatever he could to justify his sick agenda and used both Darwin/Marx to trick the people. And when the abortion centers were started, I feel it was just another "trick" to eliminate more of the race that did not measure up to Hitler's "Pure Breed Human". This, of course is an entirely different conversation, but does tie in to Hitler's agenda.

Anyway, I guess that part of history can be hashed and hashed and we come up with "half a dozen of this, and six of the other".

My point? A book over 2000 years old with documentation of Jesus, God, miracles, etc is being ignored in this conversation; (the Bible).
Fairytale characters you mention are not really fair in this as it seams the world has narrowed this supject down to 1) evolution? or 2) Creationism?
Creationism on the other hand, has valid documentation from the Bible, Testimony, Witnesses and so on. It can't be just ignored.

I asked you previously: Have "you" NEVER had anything happen in YOUR life, that peaked your suspicion just a little of the possibility of Divine intervention? I understand from your writings to me you don't deny your suspicion has been peaked, but have you had anything happen to you personally?

We both know where I stand, as I think I have made it clear. I have a nagging curiosity of what makes others such as yourself so passionate to disprove God. What has prompted this type of passion in YOU personally; if I may ask?? And what about my question above?

I do want you to know that I appreciate very much your ability to discuss this rationaly with me, it's much appreciated. Hopefuly I have not provoked you to anger, as that is NOT my intention.
Thanks again.

I didn't have any particular thing that happened personally that peaked my suspicion of Divine intervention. I probably wouldn't be passionate about disproving god, since trying to prove a negative is near impossible, although I tend to defend claims that have empiricial evidence. What prompts me is the search for truth.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper
Coo....
I don't and never said that I think Darwin had passion to go against the chruch.

I thought you said that he was trying desperately to disprove creationism? Wait you did:

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

I'm only using it to explain that Darwin & Marx, in my opinion, in short, were just trying desperately to disprove creationism.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

His passion was to find the answer for himself, but he clearly was looking for an answer.

Just like every scientist who is aware that people who say they know everything are bound to be wrong.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper
Yes Coo...that is the story I was looking for. But my point was that Darwin confided that evolution was wrong. I brought him and Marx up in this because this seems to be where the struggle (Publicly) began. It's history, not my opinion.

But Darwin never did say any of that. As I said: It's a creationism claim. It has been refuted many times because the woman that he supposedly told that to was not there during his death. Secondly, if he had said that evolution was wrong what difference would it have made? Copernicus changing his mind about heliocentrism at the last second wouldn't make the planets start to orbit the earth.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper
Coo...
Again, Evolution vs creationism is what the world currently and prior seems to have narrowed this down to. It's an enormous issue in schools, creationism for the most part has been banned, and evolution has not. These are facts, and history...not MY personal opinions.

Creationism is taught, they teach it in religious education under comparative religions which IMO makes perfect sense because it is a religious issue. They taught it to me when I was in the 8th grade along with Jewish and Islamic history.

The beef with many creationists though is that they want it taught in science classrooms as Science. Creationists then go to court trying to change that and find that there are hurdles that prevents such a thing from occurring such as the fact that it is not science, science is not defined by the general public but by scientists who agree by consensus on the the best theories. For over 150 years, the vast majority of scientists around the world have deemed evolution to be far more worthy of the title of theory than creationism which remains a hypothesis.

Do you have a problem with it being taught in religious education? If so why?

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

If you want MY opinion, It has never crossed my mind that there is no God. Ever since I was little, I have believed in God. and YOU don't. Get over it.

Um ok but to “get over it” I would need to be in some way uncomfortable with you believing in the Abrahamic god. I don't and to avoid falling into another logical pitfall we have theistic evolution which proves anyone who says that evolution has any say on whether there is a god or not wrong.
Theistic evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper
Coo...
I don't agree with you, and I 100% believe in God. There is no doubt and I'm not confused and I don't wonder of any other options. He has complete authority, but gives us free will. Most things that bite us in the butt here and there, are usually as a result of a poor decision somewhere along the line. We learn by it, and gain Wisdom.

That's fine by me, I understand your position and I'm sure you understand mine, I value doubt above all else which is good because it's not something that people like me can do away with. My Zen philosophies tell me that it's not wise to become too attached to a certain way of thinking or a set of beliefs and I question everything, even my lack of belief as you probably noticed.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper
Coo...
I'm glad you reject such a notion, and that you take full responsibility for your own actions. I don't agree with you of the possibility that a being out there toys with us.

Well it's certainly a possibility but it's good you disagree since it gives us a common ground: Our mutual unbelief in the mischief god. You are exactly one step away from atheism which is perfect if your intention is to understand those who fall under that label.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

I don't really know the extent of your studies in life, you appear to know your history, but if you have never read the Bible, maybe for the sake of history, you should consider it.

You don't have to worry about that, I had a catholic upbringing until I started college and I think it's taught me many things. What's important to understand is not just what is written in the bible but how it affects the daily lives of Christians and their philosophies.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

It may put the notion of a being causing mischief to get their kicks out of the back of your mind.

Why? It's quite obvious that a book that promotes a monotheistic religion with a loving god would reject this deity but it's still a very tiny possibility.

I'm also inclined to think that people just believe in what they want to believe, I mean what would you say if one day told you that I think this mischief maker is Satan? Would you still disagree with “the possibility that a being out there toys with us.”

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Just for the record, I have not narrowed anything down to Creationism vs Evolution.....the world is doing that all by itself. Listen to the news, read the paper, it's one of the biggest problems we are facing within our own country, children, schools, politics, and so on....I don't feel the need to narrow anything, we both know MY feelings.

It's not a big deal here in the UK since creationism is mostly an American phenomenon dating as far back as the 1920's. This isn't a secular state but the Anglican church is a supporter of theistic evolution. Also creationism(focus on the -ism) is the rejection of evolution on religious grounds so it loses all meaning without the context of Darwinism.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Thanks for the talk.

Likewise.

[Haaziq]

I laugh everytime somebody brings up that Lady Hope story. There is absolutely no evidence to support it and Darwin's family has said before that Lady Hope was never there. I guess creationists always find some way to convince themselves that she actually met Darwin, but his family denied it. The Lady Hope story is BS, period.

[Bookkeeper]

[quote=coosjoaquin;4916753]I thought you said that he was trying desperately to disprove creationism? Wait you did:

Yes, I said "disprove creationism". I have found so far in my experience with doing exerpts with quotes, that it is very easy to twist what one's original intentions are. I have also found that some get so offended of others belief system. You have attempted to turn my conversion with someone else, into a personal agenda and debate with ME on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution. I guess if you paid closer attention to my conversation with someone else, you would have understood my original subject with them.

Quote: Coop
Just like every scientist who is aware that people who say they know everything are bound to be wrong.

Bookkeeper:
I absolutely have no idea what your insult is in this one, but I'm sure you must be right

Quote: Coos
But Darwin never did say any of that. As I said: It's a creationism claim. It has been refuted many times because the woman that he supposedly told that to was not there during his death. Secondly, if he had said that evolution was wrong what difference would it have made? Copernicus changing his mind about heliocentrism at the last second wouldn't make the planets start to orbit the earth.

Bookkeeper:
Well, if you were there, then I guess you are right again.

Quote: Coos
Creationism is taught, they teach it in religious education under comparative religions which IMO makes perfect sense because it is a religious issue. They taught it to me when I was in the 8th grade along with Jewish and Islamic history.

Bookkeeper:
I was taught it in the 8th grade also. But, today, you are not in the 8th grade. In most of the public school system, creationism is being banned, which only leaves one theory for children in school to believe. Now you can find 10 pages I'm sure to disagree, and I don't care. It's wrong to only give children ONE way to believe what has always been a theory. In order to prove or disprove a theory, there must be more than one theory in the educational aspect...


Quote: Coos
The beef with many creationists though is that they want it taught in science classrooms as Science. Creationists then go to court trying to change that and find that there are hurdles that prevents such a thing from occurring such as the fact that it is not science, science is not defined by the general public but by scientists who agree by consensus on the the best theories. For over 150 years, the vast majority of scientists around the world have deemed evolution to be far more worthy of the title of theory than creationism which remains a hypothesis.

Bookkeeper:
Your too prejudice. Did you ever stop to think that it's stupid to take such a theory away when there is nothing else to compare it to? Before you get excited over the above "loaded" question, simplify your mind a little bit. Think of how fragile the mind of a child is. In all fairness to ALL concerned, give the children at least the opportunity to have choices when it comes to this type of decision that will in all probability affect them for the rest of their lives.

Quote: Coos
Do you have a problem with it being taught in religious education? If so why?

Bookkeeper:
No Coos, I don't. I went to private school for four years. Probably the most important and infuencial 4 years of my life. And, guess what? They DID include it in our education. They never pushed anything on the issue. They laid out the information of BOTH THEORIES. In fact, it's odd, when I look back at that time, it never affected me personally. Religion was never pushed on me as a child. Even in the school I went to, they never crammed anything down our throat. My parents sent me to private school starting in the 6th grade because the middle school in our district was really really dangerous. My older siblings made it through the public middle school before it got violent. In the 10th grade, I asked them to let me make the choice, and they let me. I finished high school in public system for 10th thru 12th. I had great times in both public and private schools I went to, and great teachers in both as well.
There are times Coos, that I wish my parents did take me to church, and did educate me more with christianity. But, I did it myself. I joined youth groups and clubs, and I had a blast.
I found the Lord when I was very young. In fact, I remember talking to Him as far back as 4 years old. I don't want to share too much with you, but you should understand that not all Christians are religious. Religion to me is man taking exerpts from the Bible, just as you do to me, and twisting them to fit his own set of rules. That's very disturbing to me.
I don't blame Darwin or Marx for searching for THEIR truth, the only person I absolutely detest, which is the reason I even brought them up in the first place, is HITLER. He abused these theories to justify murder, and self image. So you see my friend, I'm just not into this "debate" with you.
But know this about me; I know in my heart, my soul, my mind, my entire being, that the Lord God Almighty exists. I believe that the Lord, Jesus Christ is his Son, and that he did die on the cross and shed his blood (which is very important to me) in order that all humans, Jews and Gentiles alike, are now able to have eternal life, now by His Grace (no more vengence) and are also able to have the priviledge of spending it with Him in his Kingdom. I am 100% a God fearing person. I fail all the time, but I do everything in my power to NOT sin according to His Word and His commandments. I know He loves me so much. I have MY OWN PROOF, and there is no way to make you see this truth other than explain it summed up as above, and tell you that I'm extremely excited to be with him when it's time. I can't debate this with you. I'm not going to push it on you. It's too personal a thing for me. In all honesty though, I wish you COULD share it with me, but you can't or won't. That's okay with ME. I can't debate the Word (Bible) with you either. I believe every last word. When I find something that I don't understand, I research it like crazy until I get my answer.
I'm going to shut up now, and you CAN have the last word/s.


Quote: Coos
Um ok but to “get over it” I would need to be in some way uncomfortable with you believing in the Abrahamic god. I don't and to avoid falling into another logical pitfall we have theistic evolution which proves anyone who says that evolution has any say on whether there is a god or not wrong.
Theistic evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's fine by me, I understand your position and I'm sure you understand mine, I value doubt above all else which is good because it's not something that people like me can do away with. My Zen philosophies tell me that it's not wise to become too attached to a certain way of thinking or a set of beliefs and I question everything, even my lack of belief as you probably noticed.


Bookkeeper:
Then I guess we have called a truce!

Quote: Coos
Well it's certainly a possibility but it's good you disagree since it gives us a common ground: Our mutual unbelief in the mischief god. You are exactly one step away from atheism which is perfect if your intention is to understand those who fall under that label.

Bookkeeper:
I'm sure the above statment gave you blistful pleasure. But it was distasteful of you. I'm afraid your not going to get the rise you expected, as I truly don't care what you think. It's getting too stupid.
I do, on the other hand, care what I think, and can only pray for you.

Quote: Coos
You don't have to worry about that, I had a catholic upbringing until I started college and I think it's taught me many things. What's important to understand is not just what is written in the bible but how it affects the daily lives of Christians and their philosophies.

Why? It's quite obvious that a book that promotes a monotheistic religion with a loving god would reject this deity but it's still a very tiny possibility.

Bookkeeper:
God never asked for "religion". His purpose was to have "The Body of Christ" which would make us all one through Him. How awesome if we all just stopped to consider that for one brief moment. It would be quite a moment.

Quote: Coos
I'm also inclined to think that people just believe in what they want to believe, I mean what would you say if one day told you that I think this mischief maker is Satan? Would you still disagree with “the possibility that a being out there toys with us.”

Bookkeeper:
My friend, I would applaud you. Because you have hit the nail on the head. NOW, we have our common ground!

Quote: Coos
It's not a big deal here in the UK since creationism is mostly an American phenomenon dating as far back as the 1920's. This isn't a secular state but the Anglican church is a supporter of theistic evolution. Also creationism(focus on the -ism) is the rejection of evolution on religious grounds so it loses all meaning without the context of Darwinism.

Bookkeeper:
Thanks for the education on that. This is the type of things I was trying to understand from my ORIGINAL conversation. I was curious of certain things, not looking for a debate, or to convert someone. Converstion would be great, but at that time, I was looking for answers to specific questions.....And then came YOU

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
Well, if you were there, then I guess you are right again.

He wasn't there, but Darwin's family was. Lady Hope never even visited Darwin, period. Darwin's family was there. What do you have to say about that?

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

In order to prove or disprove a theory, there must be more than one theory in the educational aspect...

That's false and it's a complete cop-out. Do I need to introduce two theories, one stating gravity exists and one stating it doesn't? No. Why? Because we know gravity exists and to say otherwise would be foolish. By the way, there is tons of proof for evolution. I'd suggest you do a little research. Not only that, but it has been observed in numerous labs across the world.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
Your too prejudice.

Creationism isn't science, period. That's a fact. It must be scientifically testable to be science. Creationism is not. Where is the prejudice in that?

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Did you ever stop to think that it's stupid to take such a theory away when there is nothing else to compare it to?

You used that same argument above and I already refuted it. No comparison is needed.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Before you get excited over the above "loaded" question, simplify your mind a little bit. Think of how fragile the mind of a child is. In all fairness to ALL concerned, give the children at least the opportunity to have choices when it comes to this type of decision that will in all probability affect them for the rest of their lives.

Well, believe it or not, but understanding evolution is more important than you think. It is used in making predictions, creating medicines, and many other things. Have I also mentioned before that there is tons of evidence that supports it?

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
No Coos, I don't. I went to private school for four years. Probably the most important and infuencial 4 years of my life. And, guess what? They DID include it in our education. They never pushed anything on the issue. They laid out the information of BOTH THEORIES. In fact, it's odd, when I look back at that time, it never affected me personally. Religion was never pushed on me as a child. Even in the school I went to, they never crammed anything down our throat. My parents sent me to private school starting in the 6th grade because the middle school in our district was really really dangerous. My older siblings made it through the public middle school before it got violent. In the 10th grade, I asked them to let me make the choice, and they let me. I finished high school in public system for 10th thru 12th. I had great times in both public and private schools I went to, and great teachers in both as well.
There are times Coos, that I wish my parents did take me to church, and did educate me more with christianity. But, I did it myself. I joined youth groups and clubs, and I had a blast.
I found the Lord when I was very young. In fact, I remember talking to Him as far back as 4 years old. I don't want to share too much with you, but you should understand that not all Christians are religious. Religion to me is man taking exerpts from the Bible, just as you do to me, and twisting them to fit his own set of rules. That's very disturbing to me.
I don't blame Darwin or Marx for searching for THEIR truth, the only person I absolutely detest, which is the reason I even brought them up in the first place, is HITLER. He abused these theories to justify murder, and self image. So you see my friend, I'm just not into this "debate" with you.
But know this about me; I know in my heart, my soul, my mind, my entire being, that the Lord God Almighty exists. I believe that the Lord, Jesus Christ is his Son, and that he did die on the cross and shed his blood (which is very important to me) in order that all humans, Jews and Gentiles alike, are now able to have eternal life, now by His Grace (no more vengence) and are also able to have the priviledge of spending it with Him in his Kingdom. I am 100% a God fearing person. I fail all the time, but I do everything in my power to NOT sin according to His Word and His commandments. I know He loves me so much. I have MY OWN PROOF, and there is no way to make you see this truth other than explain it summed up as above, and tell you that I'm extremely excited to be with him when it's time. I can't debate this with you. I'm not going to push it on you. It's too personal a thing for me. In all honesty though, I wish you COULD share it with me, but you can't or won't. That's okay with ME. I can't debate the Word (Bible) with you either. I believe every last word. When I find something that I don't understand, I research it like crazy until I get my answer.
I'm going to shut up now, and you CAN have the last word/s.

I actually read all that even though it wasn't directed at me. I have 3 comments.
1. You liked your experience. Good for you.
2. Hitler rejected Darwinism and Marxism. For one he was a Catholic. Second, during the time Hitler ran Germany, it was a fascist country. Fascists are strongly against communism, socialism, or Marxism. It's safe to assume that if Darwin or Karl Marx lived in Nazi Germany, they probably would've been hung.
3. I highly doubt that the school you went to laid out evolution completely for you. I would say of all the people who I've ever heard say, "Evolution isn't possible and didn't/doesn't happen.", 99.999% of them can't actually tell me what evolution is or how it works. So basically, they're arguing against something they lack knowledge of. Not a good look considering the fact that many atheists can quote scripture better than the religious. If you're going to criticize something, at least know what you're talking about.

[Bookkeeper]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

I thought you said that he was trying desperately to disprove creationism? Wait you did:


Just like every scientist who is aware that people who say they know everything are bound to be wrong.


But Darwin never did say any of that. As I said: It's a creationism claim. It has been refuted many times because the woman that he supposedly told that to was not there during his death. Secondly, if he had said that evolution was wrong what difference would it have made? Copernicus changing his mind about heliocentrism at the last second wouldn't make the planets start to orbit the earth.



Creationism is taught, they teach it in religious education under comparative religions which IMO makes perfect sense because it is a religious issue. They taught it to me when I was in the 8th grade along with Jewish and Islamic history.

The beef with many creationists though is that they want it taught in science classrooms as Science. Creationists then go to court trying to change that and find that there are hurdles that prevents such a thing from occurring such as the fact that it is not science, science is not defined by the general public but by scientists who agree by consensus on the the best theories. For over 150 years, the vast majority of scientists around the world have deemed evolution to be far more worthy of the title of theory than creationism which remains a hypothesis.

Do you have a problem with it being taught in religious education? If so why?





Um ok but to “get over it” I would need to be in some way uncomfortable with you believing in the Abrahamic god. I don't and to avoid falling into another logical pitfall we have theistic evolution which proves anyone who says that evolution has any say on whether there is a god or not wrong.
Theistic evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's fine by me, I understand your position and I'm sure you understand mine, I value doubt above all else which is good because it's not something that people like me can do away with. My Zen philosophies tell me that it's not wise to become too attached to a certain way of thinking or a set of beliefs and I question everything, even my lack of belief as you probably noticed.



Well it's certainly a possibility but it's good you disagree since it gives us a common ground: Our mutual unbelief in the mischief god. You are exactly one step away from atheism which is perfect if your intention is to understand those who fall under that label.


You don't have to worry about that, I had a catholic upbringing until I started college and I think it's taught me many things. What's important to understand is not just what is written in the bible but how it affects the daily lives of Christians and their philosophies.


Why? It's quite obvious that a book that promotes a monotheistic religion with a loving god would reject this deity but it's still a very tiny possibility.

I'm also inclined to think that people just believe in what they want to believe, I mean what would you say if one day told you that I think this mischief maker is Satan? Would you still disagree with “the possibility that a being out there toys with us.”



It's not a big deal here in the UK since creationism is mostly an American phenomenon dating as far back as the 1920's. This isn't a secular state but the Anglican church is a supporter of theistic evolution. Also creationism(focus on the -ism) is the rejection of evolution on religious grounds so it loses all meaning without the context of Darwinism.


Likewise.

Originally Posted by Haaziq

He wasn't there, but Darwin's family was. Lady Hope never even visited Darwin, period. Darwin's family was there. What do you have to say about that?


That's false and it's a complete cop-out. Do I need to introduce two theories, one stating gravity exists and one stating it doesn't? No. Why? Because we know gravity exists and to say otherwise would be foolish. By the way, there is tons of proof for evolution. I'd suggest you do a little research. Not only that, but it has been observed in numerous labs across the world.


Creationism isn't science, period. That's a fact. It must be scientifically testable to be science. Creationism is not. Where is the prejudice in that?

You used that same argument above and I already refuted it. No comparison is needed.

Well, believe it or not, but understanding evolution is more important than you think. It is used in making predictions, creating medicines, and many other things. Have I also mentioned before that there is tons of evidence that supports it?

I actually read all that even though it wasn't directed at me. I have 3 comments.
1. You liked your experience. Good for you.
2. Hitler rejected Darwinism and Marxism. For one he was a Catholic. Second, during the time Hitler ran Germany, it was a fascist country. Fascists are strongly against communism, socialism, or Marxism. It's safe to assume that if Darwin or Karl Marx lived in Nazi Germany, they probably would've been hung.
3. I highly doubt that the school you went to laid out evolution completely for you. I would say of all the people who I've ever heard say, "Evolution isn't possible and didn't/doesn't happen.", 99.999% of them can't actually tell me what evolution is or how it works. So basically, they're arguing against something they lack knowledge of. Not a good look considering the fact that many atheists can quote scripture better than the religious. If you're going to criticize something, at least know what you're talking about.

You have made some good points. I do not agree with most of them. The reason is because you are off track to my original motives. I have not debated evolution, I have only made clear I believe in God and the Bible to sum it up. I believe that some things do evolve. Just not to the point of MY creation. I believe God created all things. There is a point that some things He created may have evolved. This is truly not my battle. Now the two of you want to make it my battle, so please, why don't the two of you get together and have fun. One more thing, 8th grade level education of evolution, does not usually go beyond the 8th grade level. Thanks for the cards and letters.

[coosjoaquin]

Bookkeeper if you want to quote my messages then highlight that part of my message you wish to respond to and click on the "wrap [quote] tags around selected text" button which looks like a speech bubble on the advanced editor.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Yes, I said "disprove creationism". I have found so far in my experience with doing exerpts with quotes, that it is very easy to twist what one's original intentions are.I have also found that some get so offended of others belief system. You have attempted to turn my conversion with someone else, into a personal agenda and debate with ME on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution. I guess if you paid closer attention to my conversation with someone else, you would have understood my original subject with them.

*sigh* If all you want is the response from AS alone then please send her a direct message. I'm not sure how I twisted what you were saying, I don't feel I did and you haven't said what you really meant but I guess that's all irrelevant at this point.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
I absolutely have no idea what your insult is in this one, but I'm sure you must be right

I'm not sure why you would assume it is an insult.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
Well, if you were there, then I guess you are right again.

I wasn't there and neither was Elizabeth hope(she never even met Darwin) but Darwin's daughter Henrietta was when he passed away and she says no such conversion happened. The deathbed recant is a myth and no amount of unnecessary sarcasm will ever change that

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
I was taught it in the 8th grade also. But, today, you are not in the 8th grade. In most of the public school system, creationism is being banned, which only leaves one theory for children in school to believe. Now you can find 10 pages I'm sure to disagree, and I don't care. It's wrong to only give children ONE way to believe what has always been a theory. In order to prove or disprove a theory, there must be more than one theory in the educational aspect...

Do you have any news stories of creationism being banned? Fair enough if they ban it in a biology classroom because it's not science but if they are banning it from being taught in religious education then I disagree with people trying to do that(why would they in the first place?)

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
Your too prejudice. Did you ever stop to think that it's stupid to take such a theory away when there is nothing else to compare it to? Before you get excited over the above "loaded" question, simplify your mind a little bit. Think of how fragile the mind of a child is. In all fairness to ALL concerned, give the children at least the opportunity to have choices when it comes to this type of decision that will in all probability affect them for the rest of their lives.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my post, I'm all for teaching creationism in RE but not in science classrooms. It's like teaching English in Mathematics.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

I'm going to shut up now, and you CAN have the last word/s.

Whatever makes one happy. Though I don't agree I can at least admire your absolute devotion.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
I'm sure the above statment gave you blistful pleasure. But it was distasteful of you. I'm afraid your not going to get the rise you expected, as I truly don't care what you think. It's getting too stupid.
I do, on the other hand, care what I think, and can only pray for you.

Distasteful? With all due respect what the hell are you getting offended at? That I think you are an atheist with respect to the mischief god? It's a homage to Stephen Roberts famous quote:

"I contend we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

Seriously is atheism that offensive to you? You know what forget it, I'm pretty sure this has to do with the stigma that the term atheist carries around.

Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

Bookkeeper:
God never asked for "religion". His purpose was to have "The Body of Christ" which would make us all one through Him. How awesome if we all just stopped to consider that for one brief moment. It would be quite a moment.

Bookkeeper:
My friend, I would applaud you. Because you have hit the nail on the head. NOW, we have our common ground!

Bookkeeper:
Thanks for the education on that. This is the type of things I was trying to understand from my ORIGINAL conversation. I was curious of certain things, not looking for a debate, or to convert someone. Converstion would be great, but at that time, I was looking for answers to specific questions.....And then came YOU

Eh sure but why not go to the ask an atheist thread in the A&A sub-forum? Asking these type of things on a thread designed specifically for debating about the existance of a god is rather odd and out of place.