Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Terms don't win arguments; arguments do. Terms are merely (not to deprecate them -they are necessary for communication) labels for concepts. The religious apologist relies a lot on semantic fiddling: twisting or reassigning terms to different meanings so that words say something different.
'Faith- Belief' is a very common one. The thing is, these arguments are long -since won. The problem is (as usual) getting the believers to accept that.
As I posted just now about a debunked Creationist claim (the Giraffe's neck) this is long refuted, but they still keep making it.
I reckon the debate has long since been won. The war is not now about facts but about propaganda.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-30-2020 at 11:03 PM..
What this forum needs is people who address the arguments instead of 1) just attacking others, and 2) the usual irrelevant hijacking about anti-god and political systems that have no longer existed since Perestroika.
I make no assumptions, I use what the early texts literally say, or say when the evidence is not conclusive enough. It is the historicist who has to make assumptions such as Q.
Would you place the probability very high that Jesus never existed?
Would you place the probability very high that Jesus never existed?
I would say there is a high chance he did not exist. I do not have enough data to say very high, but the earliest Christian texts we have do say Jesus was a divine being.
I would say there is a high chance he did not exist. I do not have enough data to say very high, but the earliest Christian texts we have do say Jesus was a divine being.
Galatians 4:4 says Jesus was an angel.
Philippians 2 says Jesus was a divine being who took on human form.
Paul uses the term for manufactured instead of being born when talking about Jesus.
The Epistle to the Hebrews says Jesus was the heavenly priest who's sacrifice was once only, in heaven, in a temple not built by human hands, unlike the annual priestly sacrifice in the temple on earth.
Philo also wrote about a divine being who shared many traits that Paul gave Jesus.
Terms don't win arguments; arguments do. Terms are merely (not to deprecate them -they are necessary for communication) labels for concepts. The religious apologist relies a lot on semantic fiddling: twisting or reassigning terms to different meanings so that words say something different.
'Faith- Belief' is a very common one. The thing is, these arguments are long -since won. The problem is (as usual) getting the believers to accept that.
As I posted just now about a debunked Creationist claim (the Giraffe's neck) this is long refuted, but they still keep making it.
I reckon the debate has long since been won. The war is not now about facts but about propaganda.
Makes you wonder, right?
Reminds me of how my MinL (in Utah) explained some years back that the reason Mormons were polygamous back in the early days was because there were not enough men to go around. I very respectfully explained that just wasn't true and followed up by sending her some actual history that explained how Mormons got into polygamy.
A good many years later, the same topic somehow came up again and my MinL repeated the exact same explanation about the shortage of men. I couldn't believe my ears. It was as if all the information I had provided her about this years before had never happened. So what's the moral of the story? It's more than just a bad memory. It's something far more to do with confirmation bias that renders even the good arguments impotent.
Understanding these dynamics helps to understand what works best and what doesn't. Or does it alleviate the frustration of impenetrable preconceived nonsense all the more? I'm really not sure...
Galatians 4:4 says Jesus was an angel.
Philippians 2 says Jesus was a divine being who took on human form.
Paul uses the term for manufactured instead of being born when talking about Jesus.
The Epistle to the Hebrews says Jesus was the heavenly priest who's sacrifice was once only, in heaven, in a temple not built by human hands, unlike the annual priestly sacrifice in the temple on earth.
Philo also wrote about a divine being who shared many traits that Paul gave Jesus.
Has always seemed to me that all the reference to Jesus and reference to Jesus being around one way or another, in one form or another, was more evidence that Jesus actually existed one way or another rather than that Jesus did not exist.
Most theological historians, Christian and non-Christian alike, believe that Jesus really did walk the Earth. They draw that conclusion from textual evidence in the Bible, however, rather than from the odd assortment of relics parading as physical evidence in churches all over Europe.
That's because, from fragments of text written on bits of parchment to overly abundant chips of wood allegedly salvaged from his crucifix, none of the physical evidence of Jesus' life and death hold up to scientific scrutiny.
Has always seemed to me that all the reference to Jesus and reference to Jesus being around one way or another, in one form or another, was more evidence that Jesus actually existed one way or another rather than that Jesus did not exist.
2 Peter is arguing against another sect of Christianity who argued the gospel stories were invented. Ironically they argued against this other sect by quoting an invented gospel. That is all we know of this other sect, because their texts were either deliberately destroyed, or simply not copied by the winning sect.
There are other hints in a few other texts, such as a letter allegedly written by Ignatius. So all we have are the surviving texts of the sect that eventually won. That we have many 'historical' texts is selection bias.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
