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Yes, Hebrews recognized that the Old Covenant "is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13b NKJV). The underlying theme of chapters 7-10 focuses on the change in the priesthood. Yet Hebrews 7:5 acknowledges that Levi had the right to receive tithes. This right was given in the law (Num 18:21). So likely the temple still stood when Hebrews was written and the Old Covenant that established Levi stood as well. Hebrews knew though that the handwriting was on the wall and soon that covenant would become unworkable.
It was not unworkable because the instruction to the common man on how to relate to the Creator or their neighbor was obsolete or of no value. The system of atoning for mistakes had been replaced and we can now see the old method was about to be eliminated with the destruction of the temple. The fault necessitating the change was not with the covenant, but the people who were bound by it. They didn't uphold their half of the bargain (Heb 8:7-10).
However, God is faithful and He determined to confirm another covenant that could be kept. His plan is: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Heb 8:10).
The fundamental terms of the covenant are the same, minus the Levitical system, but He will enable believers to do them. One does what is in their heart, as I explained my last post. (see also Prov 3:1, 3)
"His Laws" are not 'the law'. When we understand the quirks of Hebrew speech we see that 'His law' is the same as His covenant (Ps 78:10, Hos 8:1). His covenant, the covenant of the Lord, is the Ten Commandments. "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." (Deu 4:13) This was done in Exodus 20-24 (Deu 4:12-13, 23) This was also the covenant He made with Abraham and the Patriarchs. "He remembers His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, 9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, 10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant, 11 Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan As the allotment of your inheritance," (Ps 105:8-11).
What people don't fully consider is that there were two covenants made with Israel in the wilderness. The Old Covenant, that established Levi was the second, made just before Israel went into the Promised Land (Deu 29:1, 31:24-26). Hebrews calls it the "first", because Hebrews is only dealing with two, the Old and the New. Of those the old was obviously the first. The original Greek 'prote' indicates a first in a series. The series under discussion in Hebrews consists of only the Old and New.
The covenant at Sinai mentions nothing of Levi, sin offerings or curses for disobedience. It contained the original terms under which Israel was to live, which were the same terms Abraham followed. Israel didn't keep those terms for long. Within a few weeks they made themselves the golden calf and God was about to destroy them. Because of Moses pleading He relented, but established Levi as a buffer. (Ps 106:23, Deu 10:5, 8, Ex 32:10). The Law came as a result of that. One doesn't add or annul a covenant. So a second covenant was established in Deuteronomy, which means 'second law'.
That covenant is the Old covenant. The account of the confirmation of that covenant doesn't fit Exodus 20-24.. According to Hebrews Moses spoke every important precept of the law and sprinkled the tabernacle and utensils at the confirmation of the Old Covenant. (Heb 9:18-21). Moses didn't speak every precept of the law at Sinai, but only Exodus 20-23. The tabernacle didn't exist at the confirming of Exodus 24.
"not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD." (Heb 8:9) A gloss read when one is only aware of one covenant will typically connect the rejected covenant with Exodus 20-24. But where was Israel when "I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt "?
In order to take them "out of Egypt" they had to be in Egypt. The Exodus 20-24 covenant was not in Egypt (Ex 16:1). Of course, neither was the covenant of Deuteronomy (Deu 1:1). Is God more interested in geographical location or state of mind? Israel desired to go back to Egypt regularly while wondering in the wilderness. It was not until Israel entered the Promised Land that they were separated from the pull of Egypt. 'Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you."' (Josh 5:9). The Deuteronomy covenant was made just before they left mental Egypt.
The purpose of the Old Covenant was to help them keep His covenant. It failed. "because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD". Those who grasp the New Covenant will continue in His Covenant, His Law.
"But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament (covenant), because the veil is taken away in Christ." (2Cor 3:14). Jesus example makes evident the true intent of the Law. The Jews didn't know which commands were more important. They got bogged down in food, clothing, bathing and washing. They minimized justice, mercy and faith. By understanding that the instruction of Exodus 20-23 is from the beginning, we can better evaluate and apply the rest of the Law. A gloss read of these chapters is insufficient. David pondered His law regularly, but never claimed he knew it all.
Our sense of time and that of the Creator seem to be different. Peter definitely felt the New Covenant had arrived (Acts 2:16-21). However there are other scriptures that make it appear to be a future event as the quotes of Gwynedd1 would indicate. They're both right. "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Mat 7:14). Fortunately our Creator is faithful to His promises and incredibly merciful. He will keep trying even after Christ's return.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Eze 36:26-27) "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them." (Eze 37:24)
This is towards the person that asked "when did all of the laws become enacted?"
You have some very great questions and i'm gonna try my best to answer them
You asked when exactly was the changeover. In a Christian's point of view, Jesus is one with God. They are two in the same similar to how, when one is thinking about something, that person is in the act of imagining while imagining whatever it may be. They are two in the same (along with the Holy Spirit, but i'm starting to get a bit off topic.) and of course this analogy falls apart. But Jesus said, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. Nobody gets through the Father except through me." Therefore, i'm not entirely sure but i want to say the first changeover was made when the first person accepted Jesus. From my standpoint, one is saved when accepting Jesus, if He is dead or alive. You may ask, "but Jesus didn't die yet, therefore the ultimate deed of atonement hasn't been done." And i would have to reply, "God is above time. Time and everything else is created by God and for God, but to assume that God is in time is to assume that Edison is inside the light bulb." Hope that helps!
For the grandfathering question. I believe it all happened at once. Christians believe that their religion is pretty much Judiasm but with the Messiah already come and gone. But to continue this "new law" question is kind of awkward as well become Christians don't have a law necessarily. But people among the early Christian church (Paul, Peter, the disciples) all instantly turned from Judiasm to the free law of Christianity.
"Certainly, then, There occurs a setting aside of the proceeding commandment on account of its weakness and ineffectiveness. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in besides of a better hope did, through which we are drawing near to God." Hebrews 7:18
And you add that, being conservative, that the new testament wasn't established over 40 years later. Humbly speaking, what about alexander the great and julius caesar, they weren't recorded in history until about 500 years later and there is no dispute about them?
With the "word of mouth" question i also have a reply. So there are manuscripts of the bible in the tens of thousands. The next document (and i regretably forget which one) that has the most manuscripts is in the 30s. Most ancient documents have manuscipts in the single digits. So you can see that the bible pretty much blows that question away!
The simultaneous question: as long as she accepted Christ even while He was alive, she'd be saved. Again, God is not a part of time.
And i would love to ask you to continue searching for anwswers. The Truth about God is out there although people are trying to be hidden.
And, let's say you do find all of the answers, i ask you to avoid making that the cornerstone of your faith. The person that is sitting behind this computer is a 17 year old ex druggie that loves to play guitar and skate. I'm not anyone special but with the love of Christ i am changed. Thanks for reading buddy
Yes . . . Jesus changed everything and obsoleted the OT schoolmaster nonsense. "Behold I make all things new." "It is finished." Jesus completely changed the "structure" of our relationship with God so that ALL of our species now have access to Him and are saved from eternal separation. I realize that I have a very abstract mind and my knowledge of science, scripture, and spiritual sources is expansive. Nevertheless, I wish I could break through the misunderstanding about what "Jesus is the only Way" means in the overall composition of the universe. What could this mean in a scientific, non-supernatural, non-superstitious reality? It can be difficult to distill my ideas into simple pragmatic chunks. But I will try one last time to point out the absolute REALITY of what Jesus accomplished for us ALL.
All that exists is vibratory energy in various forms . . . there is really no "matter" in the classical sense as we experience it in the middle world created by our sensory system and its limitations. This bolded statement is extremely important to realize about our reality . . . because it goes against all that our sensory system seems to tell us. Everything is simply vibratory energy events . . . with "substance" reflecting energy"traffic jams" in standing waveforms in resonance and dissonance with each other. This includes our consciousnesses as specific types of energy standing waveforms . . . probably comprised of non-baryonic (dark energy/matter) energy.
As I see it . . . we are reproductive sources of consciousness for the universal consciousness (God). Our species task is to attune our consciousnesses to this God consciousness and achieve resonance. WE are not very good at it . . . but the spiritual template (common theme in the spiritual fossil record) suggests that one of us was destined to achieve perfect resonance for the rest of us.(I wont go into the details of that here) . . this is just a presentation of the scientific rationale for what the "Way" means in the overall composition of the universe, IMO.
Many mystics, holy men and avatars etc. have attempted to or claimed to have connected with God consciousness. But when you investigate their achievements as reflected in their state of mind and attitudes it becomes clear (to me anyway) that they fell short. Not Jesus . . . He retained complete love (agape/maitri) for us ALL throughout the scourging and crucifixion WE inflicted upon Him. THAT validates the real deal in my estimation.
You are familiar with the fact that there are in mathematics expressions of infinities, paradoxes, etc. I use the abstraction of "infinities" in mathematics as definite signs that our mathematical rubric is revealing the interface of our measured reality with God. I have been using the concept of resonance deliberately because it has both a conceptual and a mathematical meaning that for my purposes is identical. When we measure two vibratory sources for their resonance we use amplitutde to reveal how closely they resonate.
If we start with a large tuning fork that produces a PERFECT TONE . . . that TONE will be the relevant ENTITY that exists (NOT the tuning fork). Now we make a smaller tuning fork and we want it to produce the same tone. As it is "tuned" it approaches the same tone and "resonates" . . . but first only as imperfect "harmonics" of the TONE . . . not the same. We measure the degree of "sameness" as we "tune" the fork by the increases in amplitude as the resonance increases. IF the small tuning fork were to produce the IDENTICAL PERFECT TONE . . . it's measured amplitude would go to INFINITY (God interface). Thenceforth there would be no difference between the TONE of the small and the TONE of the large. Remember it is the TONE . . . (not the forks) . . . that is the ENTITY that exists.
Now let's expand our TONE to an entire SYMPHONY of TONES (or an infinity of TONES . . . i.e., God's Consciousness as the entity) and our small tuning fork to the vibrational energy of a human consciousness. AS this human being (Jesus) "tunes" His life energy into consciousness toward the "Symphony of Tones" . . . He produces ever closer "harmonic" resonances of the Symphony (achieves more and more powers of God). Once He produces an IDENTICAL PERFECT SYMPHONY of TONES . . . the amplitude of His resonance increases to INFINITY and there is NO DIFFERENCE in the SYMPHONY of TONES . . . they become IDENTICAL . . . one and the same.
I see Jesus as one of the small "tuning forks" (human being) but He became identical to the Big one (God) . . . therefore He is available to other human beings who may only be capable of minimal "harmonics" with Him in "Love of God and each other." Harmonic resonance is not perfect but it is enough because Jesus is "connected"(Perfectly Resonant) with God. We become connected to God as "harmonics" of His love for us ALL. Unlike the exclusive club rationales that religions like to impose . . . by mandating their VERSION of beliefs about Him and what criteria are required to obtain the "cover" of His perfect resonance . . . all that is really necessary is that your consciousness resonate in some harmonic of Jesus' in "love of God and each other" (whether you even know of Him or not).
It is in this "structural" manner that He is the "Way." The reality is that there is ONLY ONE GOD(one universal field) . . . so anyone who believes in God believes in the same God (whatever they THINK they are believing in). OUR beliefs do NOT define God. God defines God. The reality is that those who believe in "Nature" could still believe in the same God and be "attuned" in their hearts and attitudes (whatever they think they believe). If their "love of God and each other" resonates with Jesus . . . they will probably be covered, IMO.
None of this has anything to do with how close our personal "harmonic" is to Jesus and God and how much "re-tuning" might be necessary after our death. We still will reap what we sow. All the out-of-tune and evil Spirits will need significant "re-tuning" . . . and it isn't likely to be very pleasant . . . this is just another metaphor for "refining" in the lake of fire. In short . . . Jesus as the Way to God is REAL . . . and NOT just a magical belief requirement.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-27-2010 at 12:23 AM..
Yes . . . Jesus changed everything and obsoleted the OT schoolmaster nonsense.
If that's the case, then I ask you this question (completely aside from the fact that "obsolete" is not a verb):
Why do I keep reading posts from Christians quoting OT? If it's obsolete, shouldn't it have been omitted from their Bible altogether?
We don't even have to get into a discussion about the NT not having been assembled until centuries after Jesus' death. The books he read and referred to in his lifetime were the very ones Christians (or at least, some Christians) declare to be "obsolete." Or, for that matter, that the man known to history as Jesus of Nazareth was not a Christian in the first place.
If that's the case, then I ask you this question (completely aside from the fact that "obsolete" is not a verb):
I usually put quotation marks when I do that . . . just forgot to do it this time.
Quote:
Why do I keep reading posts from Christians quoting OT? If it's obsolete, shouldn't it have been omitted from their Bible altogether?
The OT is necessary to establish the expectation and promise of Jesus to remove the veil of ignorance that covers the understanding of the nature of God in the OT. That primitive ignorant interpretation of God's nature canceled out any of the benefits of self-discipline that the "schoolmaster" approach achieved in taming the barbarism of our savage ancestors. The OT remains USEFUL . . . for instruction in righteousness when understood using the "mind of Christ" as the TRUE NATURE of God and not the primitive nonsense of Jehovah.
Quote:
We don't even have to get into a discussion about the NT not having been assembled until centuries after Jesus' death. The books he read and referred to in his lifetime were the very ones Christians (or at least, some Christians) declare to be "obsolete." Or, for that matter, that the man known to history as Jesus of Nazareth was not a Christian in the first place.
These worldly issues are completely irrelevant to the spiritual purpose and interpretation of scripture.
matthew 5:17
jesus was very clear he was not here to destroy law of moses but to fulfill.
Hi Huckleberry3911948,
The Law != covenant.
The Law is fulfilled and the covenant of Moses is obsolete.
Zechariah 11:10
Hebrews 8:13
Matthew 26:27
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