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Hi Nebulous, I can understand your feelings and I have had them before. Through an "interesting" childhood I grew up with a large fear of God and up until a few years ago I developed a strong dislike for God. I didn't want anything to do with "God" and thought my life was very unfair. About 3 years ago I had my first spiritual awakening and since then my life has been like a gift to me rather than a curse. It has not been free of "trials" but I can honestly say that I love my life, myself and my God. I had to fire the God of my childhood and hire one that worked for me. Blessings to you Sweet one,
If you have to believe, have faith, accept the untangible that something exists, without any proof from the other side, God...then you're saying for those who believe, God exists, for those who won't pretend, there is no god. There cannot be 2 realities.
Agree that there is only one reality. You either believe in a self existent eternal being who is the cause of our reality or you believe that our reality arose uncaused from nothing. Both require faith. The only questions are which is more reasonable? and which is true?
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Perhaps if there is a God or Gods, it is up to him (them) to reveal himself, not for us to find him. Obviously no one has been able to find him. The ones who claim they get warm feelings, odd thoughts, see God in babies' faces, feel God's presence in nature, point to the rare medical miracle...these are not revelations of any god. The atheist sees those things as good things too, but we don't say that is a being.
Totally agree. Every false religion seeks to "find" God. Seeing that God is obviously invisible this would be naturally impossible unless God were to reveal himself. God has revealed himself in 1. Nature 2. His Word - The Holy Bible 3. His Son - Jesus Christ.
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We all know what we are talking about here, and there is so much "beating around the bush." I am tired of hearing about how something nice happened for someone, etc., and then they "found God." If there was a God, I find it odd he hasn't revealed himself to me, since I truly sought for many years, and if you want to doubt my sincerity, you can come over to my home and see the boxes of books in my garage on theology, religions, and philosophy. I've read everyone from CS Lewis to Joseph Campbell and not one of these guys knows more than you or me about any god.
He has revealed himself to you, see above. If you are hoping for a specific personal revelation then it may or may not happen. For instance, God appeared to the Apostle Paul to prevent him from persecuting the early church and Paul converted to Christianity. Most people do not receive this benefit, although my Uncle believes that God spoke to him in an audible voice and he went from being an alcoholic to an upstanding Christian overnight.
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No God ever helped me when I truly needed it.
This I seriously doubt. Your perception is skewed.
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I am tired of people telling me that Jesus talks to them in their hearts. A heart isn't an auditory organ, and atheists get heavy or light heartedness too, over emotional things. When my dad died, my heart ached and I had that heavy chest over it.
Surely you understand the concept of a conscience/inner voice/intuition. It is the spirit of a man and where spirits talks to us. I am sure that you have heard the voice of God and Devils. It comes as a thought in your mind, but originates from your spirit with no intellectual premeditation. Think of it as the answer that pops in your brain in the shower or the condemnation that comes from nowhere
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Maybe I qualify as an agnostic, because if a God revealed himself to me, I would acknowledge it, contrary to what many write. "You wouldn't believe it anyway if God himself came down and showed himself." Naw...trust me, the supernatural would scare the heck out of me and make me a believer, because I don't believe in it now.
I don't doubt that you would acknowledge Him, just that you would bow your will to him. The Israelites daily saw God in the tabernacle but still complained and had the exact same complaints that you make in this post!!!!
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There are so many things wrong in my life. I have tried to be a good person and all I get is crap. I feel I am struggling way too hard, and I have way too much stress.
Again, this is the root of all false religion. You will never be good, so repent. Once you lose your life in Christ you will find it. Jesus' yolk is easy and his burden is light. When you are truly filled with the Holy Spirit then He will produce the goodness you desire. This is the root of Christianity and how it differs from every other religion.
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You know, when I was a Christian, I prayed over this, and got nothing. Christians I knew said God :
a) wasn't ready to answer me. (Not ready??? Are they serious? Is he making me wait to just twist in the wind? Patience? We all have creditors, bills to pay, other people and things waiting on us, so if we seem impatient, we can't go to others and tell them to just be patient!
b) God said no. ( I didn't hear a "no", and no answer is not a no.)Just check NO in the box.
c) God answered me but I didn't listen. (I didn't hear anything. I make sure others hear me when I answer them, so I don't blame them if I make myself inaudible). So what is it, is God being obtuse?
d) God isn't a wish Genie. "Ask and ye shall receive"...why not, why not ask someone who supposedly loves you for real help? Why shouldn't you ask God for help when you need it? No...not the new minivan, but the job, the ability to be able to learn your job so you're not fired, health issues, etc.
e) God won't give me what I want because it's not in his Will. (Well gee, then he wants me to suffer, so why pray? Is his Will for me to suffer? Other people have suffered, and some far more than I am, or ever will. He didn't help them, so why would he help me?
Surely as a parent you understand this concept. You do not always answer your children, tell them a reason, tell them why, say yes, help them, rescue them from their sufferings, etc. You try to do what is best for them. Sometimes it is best that they suffer the consequences of their choices. This is our exact relationship with God except that the gap between us and our understanding is infinite.
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We can't find this god, so why won't he find us. Faith is like styrofoam, good for packing, but lacks real substance. You could have faith in just about anything, but does it make it real? And why would it be important to this God to hide and be unseen, and have us believe he is really there? Why not just come out from behind the curtain? Are you believers too afraid to really find out if he is there or not?
Faith is a substance - of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith as small as a tiny mustard seed can move mountains, so it is obvious that most have little or none. Faith is only as good as the object it is placed in. Strong faith in 1" ice will result in your death. Weak faith in 12" ice is perfectly safe. Believers know he is there and will see him face to face, can't wait!!!
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Why would I worship a God like this, who won't reveal himself or help me? OH yeah, I ask for bad things, I'm a bad person, etc., etc. Well, I try to be a person of intergrity, I don't gossip or cut my coworkers, I try to be a good parent, I try to do the honest or right thing because that's the way I want to feel about myself inside. Yeah, it's called Congruency.
You do not get the choose to worship God how you want. You worship Him as he has revealed Himself.
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So I am agnostic, with very strong atheistic leanings, and not one of you can prove God to me, not with your Bible or Koran verses.
Not with your stories about seeing Jesus in candy bars or your uncle who was resusitated.
My ambivalence has grown into a hate for this god, because I suspect if there is a god, there is some sadistic leanings in his will for us to suffer. That's the scariest part, perhaps this God is not all good, if he exists. But then, back to square one, does he exist??
This I believe. This is why people die eternally. Even though they see God, they still hate him. Even at the judgment they will try to justify themselves and rebel against God. This is the root of all sin - pride. Pride that you know better than God - the original sin - you shall be as God. For myself I have no illusions - I am a complete and utter failure and have nothing to offer God. He is perfectly justified to punish me however he chooses for my personal sin. However, He was gracious to me and offered me eternal life. I will gladly submit all of my ideas to the wisdom of His Word and teachings.
You also seem confused by the natural attributes and moral attributes of God. It would be good for you to review a Christian systematic theology about this.
These all have basic logical inferences, but are confirmed by the Bible.
For example, God is a spirit. He dwells in unapproachable light. He inhabits multiple dimensions that we cannot observe. A trinity can be mathematically solved, but requires 12 dimensions to solve the equation. Jesus was able to walk through closed doors after his Resurrection. That would require at least 6 dimensions because he would have to rotate out of our 3 dimensions pass the door and then rotate back. It is no suprise that God does not regularly inhabit our dimensions. This is why He revealed Himself.
You seem to question God's goodness, but he is either Good or Evil. Whichever He is, He is because He knows all things , knows what is best, and He can never change. I do not think it is logical to believe that the universe is governed by a totally Evil all powerful being. However, it is emminently logical to believe that God is good but the universe presently contains sin. This sin will eventually be removed, but until that time we can trust that God is good.
The moral attribute of God is Love as confirmed by the Bible. God is Love.
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My pet rat would make a better god.
Some people in India actually believe this rubbish. "They exchanged the truth for a lie and worshipped the creature rather than the creator"
Nebulous, I can relate. But unlike everyone else, I don't have that fuzzy feeling of belief to push or verses to quote. All I can truly say is I believe we are enduring life forms. You can call it the spirit if you wish, but it amounts to the same thing. Continuity. We are energy trapped in flesh that will endure after this form fades away. I am not talking about heaven or hell. Just a continuity of consciousness. Futher more,I believe that this world is essentially a prison. Confining us to the mundane daily life while addicting us to the material. So when it's time for the spirit to continue on to another form of existence, it refuses to go. You may now gather that I am somewhat a believer in reincarnation. I think we stay because of our addiction to the material world. Now, this is just what I believe. I'm not forcing it on you or anyone else. I just thought it might offer an alternative view point to think about. My views have also been fostered by alot of reading and research, and I don't know to many people who openly share my exact views. But that's the beautiful thing about us. We can dream our own dreams, and believe as we will. Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Reads2MUCH; 05-10-2008 at 08:57 PM..
Reason: remove extra word
Actually, I don't see nebulous as being hateful. After reading more of her posts online, I've seen a genuine sincerity in her posts. I think she is seeking after the Truth. She pours her heart out in her posts so I highly doubt she's done less than that with God. I think she's doing the very best she knows how.
Honestly, nebulous, I think you're on the right trail here. If the experience of coming to know God and having that complete assurance and peace could be explained in words, I'd stop everything and write it all out for you.
An honest answer is that I don't know why God isn't showing Himself to you in a way that you can accept. I personally apologize wholeheartedly for ever doubting your sincerity earlier. I jumped the gun on that and I was wrong. I'm very sorry.
The only thing I can say is that God is a God of His word and is a rewarder of those who seek Him with their whole heart. I also know that He can't be found in any other religion. I know people call that arrogant, but if they truly understood why, they would see why. Instead they try to see it from their own understanding, which doesn't work.
Proverbs 3:4-6
And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Thank you. The truth is more important than anything else, and so much in this world tries to cover it up. But I sought out God, any God and never got any response.
My personal faith is that God doesn't always reveal Himself to people in the same ways or at the same time... but everyone has their time when God will reveal Himself to them so that they can understand and receive that revealing.
You and I are exactly the same. We were created the same, we were born the same way, and I have experienced that revealing. According to your testimony, as of yet you have not.
Would it be fair for God to give you a different eternity than He is going to give me - just because He chose to reveal Himself to me and not yet to you? No. God is no respector of persons. If I'm going to Heaven, you are too.
Oh, let people get mad at me if they want like I'm supposed to bully you and tell you you aren't trying hard enough. It's not the truth, the way I see it. The way I see it, we all have our time when it's our time. Yes, we should, imo, as a person of faith - read the Bible and seek the Lord. But if God just does not reveal Himself - well, I don't care what they say who disagree with me. I'm going to see you in Heaven... because we both came from the same creation and were born the same way - and God is no respector of persons. He saved me - He'll save you.. that's my Biblical pov, personally, as a Christian. I pray for your comfort and hope in Him.
Grace and peace,
LeeLee
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Originally Posted by nebulous1
If you have to believe, have faith, accept the untangible that something exists, without any proof from the other side, God...then you're saying for those who believe, God exists, for those who won't pretend, there is no god. There cannot be 2 realities.
Perhaps if there is a God or Gods, it is up to him (them) to reveal himself, not for us to find him. Obviously no one has been able to find him. The ones who claim they get warm feelings, odd thoughts, see God in babies' faces, feel God's presence in nature, point to the rare medical miracle...these are not revelations of any god. The atheist sees those things as good things too, but we don't say that is a being.
We all know what we are talking about here, and there is so much "beating around the bush." I am tired of hearing about how something nice happened for someone, etc., and then they "found God." If there was a God, I find it odd he hasn't revealed himself to me, since I truly sought for many years, and if you want to doubt my sincerity, you can come over to my home and see the boxes of books in my garage on theology, religions, and philosophy. I've read everyone from CS Lewis to Joseph Campbell and not one of these guys knows more than you or me about any god.
No God ever helped me when I truly needed it. I declined from asking for a new BMW or anything material like many pray for. It wasn't about materialistic gain for me, but truth seeking.
I am tired of people telling me that Jesus talks to them in their hearts. A heart isn't an auditory organ, and atheists get heavy or light heartedness too, over emotional things. When my dad died, my heart ached and I had that heavy chest over it.
Maybe I qualify as an agnostic, because if a God revealed himself to me, I would acknowledge it, contrary to what many write. "You wouldn't believe it anyway if God himself came down and showed himself." Naw...trust me, the supernatural would scare the heck out of me and make me a believer, because I don't believe in it now.
There are so many things wrong in my life. I have tried to be a good person and all I get is crap. I feel I am struggling way too hard, and I have way too much stress. You know, when I was a Christian, I prayed over this, and got nothing. Christians I knew said God :
a) wasn't ready to answer me. (Not ready??? Are they serious? Is he making me wait to just twist in the wind? Patience? We all have creditors, bills to pay, other people and things waiting on us, so if we seem impatient, we can't go to others and tell them to just be patient!
b) God said no. ( I didn't hear a "no", and no answer is not a no.)Just check NO in the box.
c) God answered me but I didn't listen. (I didn't hear anything. I make sure others hear me when I answer them, so I don't blame them if I make myself inaudible). So what is it, is God being obtuse?
d) God isn't a wish Genie. "Ask and ye shall receive"...why not, why not ask someone who supposedly loves you for real help? Why shouldn't you ask God for help when you need it? No...not the new minivan, but the job, the ability to be able to learn your job so you're not fired, health issues, etc.
e) God won't give me what I want because it's not in his Will. (Well gee, then he wants me to suffer, so why pray? Is his Will for me to suffer? Other people have suffered, and some far more than I am, or ever will. He didn't help them, so why would he help me?
We can't find this god, so why won't he find us. Faith is like styrofoam, good for packing, but lacks real substance. You could have faith in just about anything, but does it make it real? And why would it be important to this God to hide and be unseen, and have us believe he is really there? Why not just come out from behind the curtain? Are you believers too afraid to really find out if he is there or not?
Why would I worship a God like this, who won't reveal himself or help me? OH yeah, I ask for bad things, I'm a bad person, etc., etc. Well, I try to be a person of intergrity, I don't gossip or cut my coworkers, I try to be a good parent, I try to do the honest or right thing because that's the way I want to feel about myself inside. Yeah, it's called Congruency.
So I am agnostic, with very strong atheistic leanings, and not one of you can prove God to me, not with your Bible or Koran verses.
Not with your stories about seeing Jesus in candy bars or your uncle who was resusitated.
My ambivalence has grown into a hate for this god, because I suspect if there is a god, there is some sadistic leanings in his will for us to suffer. That's the scariest part, perhaps this God is not all good, if he exists. But then, back to square one, does he exist??
He has revealed Himself to us in the Bible. If that's not good enough, then consider this: He is so holy that for us as sinners, if we were to look upon Him, we would die because of our unholiness.
But the Bible is just some book. If God does exist then he created us logical, rational beings so surely he would have figured that a few thousand years after the book was written, there would be a lot of skepticism surrounding it. A lot of the 'facts' within the Bible have been proven to be incorrect (some are just common sense) so how can we possibly be expected to base our entire worldview on a text that is littered with errors and that we have no proof as to who actually wrote it in the first place?
To me it seems as though if there is a god he's the 'prankster god' Bill Hicks was talking about - a God that enjoys watching us ponder and agonize over his existence. Mabye it's his form of brain training? Or mabye he's just a creation in the mind of humans, designed to provide answers to unanswerable questions. What a bizarre paradigm that would be; the creations created the creator. People can believe or not believe in a god all they like but in the end we're all agnostic at heart because none of us know for sure. If there is a god, we'll find out when we die. If there isn't, we'll never know.
Nebulous, I can relate. But unlike everyone else, I don't have that fuzzy feeling of belief to push or verses to quote. All I can truly say is I believe we are enduring life forms. You can call it the spirit if you wish, but it amounts to the same thing. Continuity. We are energy trapped in flesh that will endure after this form fades away. I am not talking about heaven or hell. Just a continuity of consciousness. Futher more,I believe that this world is essentially a prison. Confining us to the mundane daily life while addicting us to the material. So when it's time for the spirit to continue on to another form of existence, it refuses to go. You may now gather that I am somewhat a believer in reincarnation. I think we stay because of our addiction to the material world. Now, this is just what I believe. I'm not forcing it on you or anyone else. I just thought it might offer an alternative view point to think about. My views have also been fostered by alot of reading and research, and I don't know to many people who openly share my exact views. But that's the beautiful thing about us. We can dream our own dreams, and believe as we will. Thanks for reading!
I appreciate the honest responses!
But we do live in a material world. We have no other choice.
There seems to only be randomness, no logic or reason behind this God's Will...since everything that happens supposedly is this God's will.
My personal faith is that God doesn't always reveal Himself to people in the same ways or at the same time... but everyone has their time when God will reveal Himself to them so that they can understand and receive that revealing.
You and I are exactly the same. We were created the same, we were born the same way, and I have experienced that revealing. According to your testimony, as of yet you have not.
Would it be fair for God to give you a different eternity than He is going to give me - just because He chose to reveal Himself to me and not yet to you? No. God is no respector of persons. If I'm going to Heaven, you are too.
Oh, let people get mad at me if they want like I'm supposed to bully you and tell you you aren't trying hard enough. It's not the truth, the way I see it. The way I see it, we all have our time when it's our time. Yes, we should, imo, as a person of faith - read the Bible and seek the Lord. But if God just does not reveal Himself - well, I don't care what they say who disagree with me. I'm going to see you in Heaven... because we both came from the same creation and were born the same way - and God is no respector of persons. He saved me - He'll save you.. that's my Biblical pov, personally, as a Christian. I pray for your comfort and hope in Him.
Grace and peace,
LeeLee
But why would this God choose to reveal himself in ways we can't see? Makes no sense.
If the big goal of this whole thing is man to connect with God and vice versa, why would this God be elusive?
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