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If logic truly is your friend, you would realize that there really are 2 options. It was either created, or it wasn't.
Which one is there more evidence for? Since we know that the rule of cause and effect states that for the universe to exist, it had to have been caused, the idea that it WASN'T created just isn't logical.
The only logical conclusion would be to conclude that this universe had a creator.
The only logical thing would be to not draw a conclusion due to lack of evidence and testability.
I believe that one can both have faith and logic, however they become mutually exclusive when they both have to be applied at the same time.
For example, there is no logical way to prove or disprove an unknowable, unobservable omnipontant being. As such logic cannot really provide a definite answer to such a being's existance only faith can, one believes, one does not believe or does not know.
With logic 2+2=4. No matter how much faith you have if you add 2 units to 2 units you will have 4 units.
The only time a problem exists is when one has a paradox of faith and logic saying different things on the same issue i.e. young earth creationism. Scientific fact and logic show the world to be 3-5 Billion years old, if I am not mistaken. Some forms of religious belief say it is 6000-10000 years old. In this case faith and logic are mutually exclusive. IMHO whether faith and logic are mutually exclusive depends on the question and the person's faith. It is possible as a human to have both faith and logic so long as their faith avoids questions that can be contradicted by scientific discovery.
Just curious. Could you logically show me how a lack of intelligence could produce intelligence?
Would you consider the atom to be intelligent? We are all made of them. How about 4 chemicals that make up DNA? Or the organelles inside our cells? Are they intelligent or just running off of chemical reactions? Because all of these create living beings equipped with intelligence, all on their own, with no one controlling the process.
The natural process just happens, and it's nothing but chemical chain reactions. If there were an omnipotent intelligence controlling it, it would never go wrong. There would be no cancer, no genetic diseases, and no bad mutations. And we would never have back problems, because our genes would create a perfect upright bipedal design, rather than a quick modification of a quadrupedal structure.
Would you consider the atom to be intelligent? We are all made of them. How about 4 chemicals that make up DNA? Or the organelles inside our cells? Are they intelligent or just running off of chemical reactions? Because all of these create living beings equipped with intelligence, all on their own, with no one controlling the process.
The natural process just happens, and it's nothing but chemical chain reactions.
It astounds me how easily the logical resort to "it just happens" to get their logic chain started while castigating we who find that a completely unacceptable premise.
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If there were an omnipotent intelligence controlling it, it would never go wrong. There would be no cancer, no genetic diseases, and no bad mutations. And we would never have back problems, because our genes would create a perfect upright bipedal design, rather than a quick modification of a quadrupedal structure.
There you go with those darn "Omni's" for which there is no evidence nor justification other than human ego and preference. Why should the Creator be Omni-anything . . . why cannot he/she/it just be the Creator supplying the intelligence and life energy for all life in the universe.
It astounds me how easily the logical resort to "it just happens" to get their logic chain started while castigating we who find that a completely unacceptable premise.
Is there intelligence behind the chemical reactions in a chemist lab? The chemist puts the chemicals together, but then they do what they do on their own.
If there is a god causing every egg to be fertilized, why is it possible to be able to grow animals from a petri dish? Why are we able to clone animals?
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There you go with those darn "Omni's" for which there is no evidence nor justification other than human ego and preference. Why should the Creator be Omni-anything . . . why cannot he/she/it just be the Creator supplying the intelligence and life energy for all life in the universe.
Well it could be anything, or nothing. I just used that because the major religions like Christianity say that. But you're at least proposing that this creator has the ability to do unimaginably complex things.. where do you draw the line?
And there is the same lack of evidence and justification for a creator existing at all as there is for an "omni-" one existing: none beyond "human ego and preference."
Is there intelligence behind the chemical reactions in a chemist lab? The chemist puts the chemicals together, but then they do what they do on their own.
If there is a god causing every egg to be fertilized, why is it possible to be able to grow animals from a petri dish? Why are we able to clone animals?
Stop using extreme straw men to gloss over the fundamental ignorance underlying your position on the genesis of intelligence. Intelligence is already here in the Chemist, in life itself . . . the question is how on earth could that possibly have arisen from chaos and random processes. (Note: suggesting that an artificial mathematical construct like randomness explains anything is bogus . . . it simply quantifies our absolute ignorance of the genesis or causes of those things to which we attribute such randomness.) The answer routinely and always results in the . . . "it just is" or "it just happens" or "it is natural" . . . all phrases signifying ignorance. These tactics will only work with the untrained.
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Well it could be anything, or nothing. I just used that because the major religions like Christianity say that. But you're at least proposing that this creator has the ability to do unimaginably complex things.. where do you draw the line?
The same place you do for your "god" (Nature). We only "know" about our God what we have learned (about your god, Nature) and we do not "know" anything beyond . . . but have faith that our right brain sources of knowledge (unreliable and subjective as they can be) contain additional answers that tend to be discounted (nay . . . denigrated) by the left brain dominant types who follow the "Nature" god.
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And there is the same lack of evidence and justification for a creator existing at all as there is for an "omni-" one existing: none beyond "human ego and preference."
Ditto for the Big Bang or Singularities . . . especially since they rely exclusively on our artificial mathematical constructs, manipulations and calculations.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 12-05-2008 at 03:02 PM..
We only "know" about our God what we have learned (about your god, Nature) and we do not "know" anything beyond . . . but have faith that our right brain sources of knowledge (unreliable and subjective as they can be) contain additional answers that tend to be discounted (nay . . . denigrated) by the left brain dominant types who follow the "Nature" god.
OK - now I am curious. What the hell is your God?
Why do you have your faith in one hemisphere of your brain and not the other? Do you denigrate the left side of your brain?
(PS: I don't think I'm a "left brain dominate type" and, unlike you, no ideas are unacceptable to me so please let me in on the secret.)
OK - now I am curious. What the hell is your God?
Why do you have your faith in one hemisphere of your brain and not the other? Do you denigrate the left side of your brain?
(PS: I don't think I'm a "left brain dominate type" and, unlike you, no ideas are unacceptable to me so please let me in on the secret.)
No secret . . . there is only one God. God is everything and everything is God. God consciousness is the "Universal field" that establishes the parameters (and "laws") of the universe we study and try to understand with our consciousnesses. We are free to attribute to God all the same characteristics that we ourselves (as conscious beings) possess . . . subject to intuitive information received to the contrary . . . because we are part of the universe (therefore part of God) and to that extent it is logically imperative. Unfortunately, without disciplined right brain processing and effort we cannot "know" anything about God's consciousness. Regrettably, while we train and acquire left brain skills to refine our knowledge of the physical world . . . like the artificial mathematical rubric . . . we ignore developing any right brain skills to refine our understanding of the spiritual aspects (consciousness) of our reality.
You forgot they HAVE evidence and testability. But don't make this into another evolution debate; start a thread if u want.
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