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I've made it clear that the answer lies in belief and that I believe that God will honor all who seek. I don't believe those who have never heard will be held to the same standard of those who have. ...
I understand but I was answering your question about "which ones"
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Unto those who are given much, much is expected...
Indeed - we agree with this sentiment. When I grew up, before I latched on to a religion that I did not inherit, I felt it was incumbent on me to examine the fundamentals first. Before I chose a reigion, I needed to first convince myself that there is indeed a god. Long story short, I became an atheist. If "much is expected", does it not include not bindly following what (any) religion says? In many ways, this is a harder path to follow. Maybe your interpretation is not correct? So why this animosity towards atheists?
I understand but I was answering your question about "which ones"
Indeed - we agree with this sentiment. When I grew up, before I latched on to a religion that I did not inherit, I felt it was incumbent on me to examine the fundamentals first. Before I chose a reigion, I needed to first convince myself that there is indeed a god. Long story short, I became an atheist. If "much is expected", does it not include not bindly following what (any) religion says? In many ways, this is a harder path to follow. Maybe your interpretation is not correct? So why this animosity towards atheists?
Been there, done that and convinced myself there was a God. I found God by studying science not religion. I follow none blindly. I follow the one that makes the most sense to me.
One thing athiests and believers share is a belief that something came out of nothing. I believe all the something was created by something outside of this universe not subject to the laws of this universe that always existed. You believe it all poofed out of nothing with nothing to cause it to poof. I find your belief the one that is hard to swallow.
If you want to know why I believe what I believe, start by reading the book "The case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (sp?). It's a good read even if you don't believe as it's written like a forensic investation. I don't find my belief in the bible though I do believe the bible contains truth. I consider the bible documentation of mans attempt to understand God. RS100 if you will. I think there's way more to it than what can be contained in any book.
I was raised fundamentalist but had my faith shaken to the core by my college experiences. Remember those classes on the lives of the founders of religions, the synoptic gospels and the literary interpretation of Genesis? They didn't go down well for a baptist girl. I spent the next 10 years trying to become an athiest. Almost crossed that bridge too. It was the simple things that make all this possible that stopped me. I came to see science as the study of the laws God laid down when all of this was created. I can't look at science and not see God.
From there, I reexamined my previous Christian faith and decided that I have no reason not to accept a religion based on grace. It makes sense to me.
I do wish I'd read The Case for Christ back then. It would have saved me about 10 years of struggling.
Been there, done that and convinced myself there was a God. I found God by studying science not religion. I follow none blindly. I follow the one that makes the most sense to me.
One thing athiests and believers share is a belief that something came out of nothing. I believe all the something was created by something outside of this universe not subject to the laws of this universe. You believe it all poofed out of nothing with nothing to cause it to poof. I find your belief the one that is hard to swallow.
I also went through a struggle and reached a different conclusion. Anyway, all these arguments finally boil down to a matter of belief and faith - we are different and do not see things the same way.
One thing athiests and believers share is a belief that something came out of nothing. I believe all the something was created by something outside of this universe not subject to the laws of this universe that always existed. You believe it all poofed out of nothing with nothing to cause it to poof. I find your belief the one that is hard to swallow.
Wrong.
The belief of spontaneous generation is associated with creationism, not evolution. Plus I don't know how many times I've had to pull my hair out from the religious misconception that we came from monkeys. Anyone who knows an iota of evolution doesn't believe that.
And those things I find hard to swallow.
Wrong.
The belief of spontaneous generation is associated with creationism, not evolution. Plus I don't know how many times I've had to pull my hair out from the religious misconception that we came from monkeys. Anyone who knows an iota of evolution doesn't believe that.
And those things I find hard to swallow.
I think he was talking of the big bang, not evolution.
Then again, we don't know if there was something before the big bang. There is a theory that the life of the universe is an eternal cycle of explosions (big bangs) and implosions. I believe most atheist would tell you "we don't know yet", not "something came out of nothing".
Wrong.
The belief of spontaneous generation is associated with creationism, not evolution. Plus I don't know how many times I've had to pull my hair out from the religious misconception that we came from monkeys. Anyone who knows an iota of evolution doesn't believe that.
And those things I find hard to swallow.
No. Regardless what you believe, you have to grapple with the fact that the universe is made up of stuff that had to have come from somewhere. So where did all this stuff come from if not spontaneously generated? One thing we know for sure is it wasn't always here. There was a beginning. We know this becasue the laws of this universe say we'd reach a steady state (unchanging) and stay there given enough time (assumption, forever, as in always existing would be enough time). This universe is still in flux. We haven't had enough time to reach a steady state so this universe has not existed forever. It had a, difininitive, beginning.
We all believe that there is either something that preexisted this universe outside of this universe that started it all or that everything just poofed into existence out of nothing with nothing causing it to poof into existence. I find the latter the more unbelieveable of the two. Creationism doens't say this poofed from nothing with nothing causeing it. Creationism says something outside of this universe caused it.
I find sheet theory (the physics theory that may replace string theory) fascinating since it seems to indicate that this universe may have been created when two others collided, of course then there's where did those universes come from. No matter what you believe, you believe in some pretty amazing stuff.
No. Regardless what you believe, you have to grapple with the fact that the universe is made up of stuff that had to have come from somewhere. [...]
We all believe that there is either something that preexisted this universe outside of this universe that started it all or that everything just poofed into existence out of nothing with nothing causing it to poof into existence.
I explained above why this model cannot be true. If we've been in cycles forever, then we'd have reached steady state by now. We haven't. Therefore, there is a beginning. When was it and what caused it?
The problem is, forever is long enough to reach steady state. No more cycles happen after steady state is reached. So, if there is a cycle, there have been a finite number of cycles which leaves us with what started the first one?
And wikipedia isn't a reliable source for anything since anyone can post anything there.
Regardless what you believe, you believe something came from nothing. Choose what something you'll believe in. This universe, clearly, from a scientific point of view, had a beginning. What do you beleive caused it? Nothing? or Something?
I explained above why this model cannot be true. If we've been in cycles forever, then we'd have reached steady state by now. We haven't. Therefore, there is a beginning. When was it and what caused it?
The problem is, forever is long enough to reach steady state. No more cycles happen after steady state is reached. So, if there is a cycle, there have been a finite number of cycles which leaves us with what started the first one?
You may wish to read the article. Each model proposed a way this problem could be avoided. Of course, they could be wrong (and some have later been proved to be), but at least the hypothesis isn't laughable.
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And wikipedia isn't a reliable source for anything since anyone can post anything there.
I'm aware of that, but it does indicate that hypothesis of a cyclical universe exist and are considered, even if the article contains mistakes or does a bad job at explaining them.
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Regardless what you believe, you believe something came from nothing.
No! 1. You can believe that the universe is eternally cycling (you could of course be wrong), and 2. I think most atheists and scientists, if asked, would answer "we don't know yet". I know I would, which is proof enough that we do not all believe it.
I explained above why this model cannot be true. If we've been in cycles forever, then we'd have reached steady state by now. We haven't. Therefore, there is a beginning. When was it and what caused it?
The problem is, forever is long enough to reach steady state. No more cycles happen after steady state is reached. So, if there is a cycle, there have been a finite number of cycles which leaves us with what started the first one?
You're using some pretty vague terms here, im having difficulty understanding. What do you mean by "steady state"? I would say that if their is any one thing that is consistant about this universe, is that it is always changing. Things arent the same today as there were yesterday, and I see no reason for this to stop. Are you saying that if the universe has cycles then it would stop changing?
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
And wikipedia isn't a reliable source for anything since anyone can post anything there.
I hate it when people use this arguement to discredit wikipedia. Ok, you've got a point, anybody and their brother can post to wikipedia. But, literaly BILLIONS of people use it. Wikipedia is more peer reviewed than any scientific journal, text book, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Regardless what you believe, you believe something came from nothing. Choose what something you'll believe in. This universe, clearly, from a scientific point of view, had a beginning. What do you beleive caused it? Nothing? or Something?
Ok, where did your god come from then?
Your basically using a version of the teolological arguement, if something is created it must have a creator. The questions your are asking about where the universe came from can very easily be applied to your deity.
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