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Well, it is not my ONLY disagreement with Born Again Christians (BACs) , but it is one of my larger ones. They believe that it is not what we do, but simply what we profess and believe, that saves us from damnation. Works cannot save us, only saying that Chirst is "my lord and saviour" can.
In other words...Gandhi, one of the greatest men of peace the world has ever known, who faught for non-violence, human rights and independence and stuck to the concept of non-violence even as he was attacked himself and his enemies laughed...is burning in hell according to the BACs.This man of peace, who gave most of his wealth to the poor and had only two robes, some sandles and his glasses when he died, died a Hindu. Though he might of defended the weak and taught the world non-violence and tolerance, simply because of the fact that he never accepted Jesus Christ as his "lord and saviour" and rejected Hinduism, he is burning in hell.
BUT: There is a fellow by the name of John Couey who you might of heard of. In 2002 he kidnapped, and raped nine year old Jessica Lunsford and murdered her by burying her alive in a trash bag while she hugged her stuffed purple dolphin. According to the doctrines of the BACs, if John Couey were to say those magic words two days before his execution "Jesus! I confess my sins and make you my 'lord and savior!'" than he would go to heaven.
So, one of the greatest men of peace of all time is in hell because of a theological disagreement, and yet, a child rapist/murderer can go to heaven despite raping and burying a little girl alive just by shouting "I BELIEVE IN ZEZUSSS!" right before his execution? What the hell (no pun intended) kind of religion is that?
At least Catholics have the concept of Penance and Purgatory. Penance being what you have to do in this life to right the wrong that you have done, and Purgatory being a temporary hell to "burn off" your sins before being granted grace. For that reason amongst others, I like the Catholic faith more than the BACs.
As a Gnostic Christian, I believe that sin comes from lack of knowing GOD through Christ. Anyone who could do something that horrable does not know GOD at all and hence, will not achieve Heaven/Transcendents/Nirvana or what ever else you want to call it.
As far as we are concerned, Gandhi might not of known GOD through Christ, but by his actions and life, he certaintly lived a Christ like life and therefore, he is no doubt at his well deserved reward....for John Cuoey and people like him, as far as we are concerned, all the jumping up and down and "speaking in the tongues" on Earth ain't gonna help him get to Heaven.
The fact that theological belief is more important than how one lives one's life is, therefore, ridiculous as far as I am concerned and is yet another reason why I could never be a "Born Again Christian".
Last edited by victorianpunk; 01-03-2009 at 08:06 PM..
What is so great about America, and God, is that that it is your choice.
I for one don't call myself a born-again Christian, because that's like saying it twice (what's the word I'm looking for here, that describes it? Oxymoron means opposites, what is it when they're the same?) If you're born again, then you're a Christian. You can't be a Christian without being born again. Just a little fyi.
Anyway...I for one, as a Christian, do not believe John Couey would be saved just for confessing his belief in Jesus on his death bed. I think there is more to being saved than just confessing. Now, had he, before his death bed, actually believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized, then I would say yes, he is saved, and the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE thing he did to that little girl would be forgiven. (It is for God to judge his heart).
As for Ghandi, I really don't know what to say, other than the fact that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. If that stops you from being a "BAC", I'm sorry... no one here said that. Jesus did.
Hi. Jesus is the only way to God. If you do good things all of your life, and you do not accept Jesus into your heart, when judgemnet day comes, and you stand in front of the Lord, he wil say, "Depart from me, I never knew you!" If you kidnapped a child, raped her, and buried her alive...was caught, convicted, and sent to prison the rest of your life, or you got the death penalty..if you come to understand how defiled and disguisting you are, and truly repented and called out to God to help you and save you from yourself, He will search your heart, to see if you mean what you say, and if you do, He will come into your life, via, the Holy Spirit, and begin a process of changing you in your heart and in your mind, and when you die, you will be saved from eternal darkness. You would understand if you were to be born again, then the Lord would bless you with spiritual understanding; knowledge and the wisdom to live it in your life. Otherwise, you will not understand the ways of God...because His ways are not your ways...His thoughts are not your thoughts. I hope you will someday come to understand....Love
Well, it is not my ONLY disagreement with Born Again Christians (BACs) , but it is one of my larger ones. They believe that it is not what we do, but simply what we profess and believe, that saves us from damnation. Works cannot save us, only saying that Chirst is "my lord and saviour" can.
In other words...Ghandi, one of the greatest men of peace the world has ever known, who faught for non-violence, human rights and independence and stuck to the concept of non-violence even as he was attacked himself and his enemies laughed...is burning in hell according to the BACs.This man of peace, who gave most of his wealth to the poor and had only two robes, some sandles and his glasses when he died, died a Hindu. Though he might of defended the weak and taught the world non-violence and tolerance, simply because of the fact that he never accepted Jesus Christ as his "lord and saviour" and rejected Hinduism, he is burning in hell.
BUT: There is a fellow by the name of John Couey who you might of heard of. In 2002 he kidnapped, and raped nine year old Jessica Lunsford and murdered her by burying her alive in a trash bag while she hugged her stuffed purple dolphin. According to the doctrines of the BACs, if John Couey were to say those magic words two days before his execution "Jesus! I confess my sins and make you my 'lord and savior!'" than he would go to heaven.
So, one of the greatest men of peace of all time is in hell because of a theological disagreement, and yet, a child rapist/murderer can go to heaven despite raping and burying a little girl alive just by shouting "I BELIEVE IN ZEZUSSS!" right before his execution? What the hell (no pun intended) kind of religion is that?
At least Catholics have the concept of Penance and Purgatory. Penance being what you have to do in this life to right the wrong that you have done, and Purgatory being a temporary hell to "burn off" your sins before being granted grace. For that reason amongst others, I like the Catholic faith more than the BACs.
As a Gnostic Christian, I believe that sin comes from lack of knowing GOD through Christ. Anyone who could do something that horrable does not know GOD at all and hence, will not achieve Heaven/Transcendents/Nirvana or what ever else you want to call it.
As far as we are concerned, Ghandi might not of known GOD through Christ, but by his actions and life, he certaintly lived a Christ like life and therefore, he is no doubt at his well deserved reward....for John Cuoey and people like him, as far as we are concerned, all the jumping up and down and "speaking in the tongues" on Earth ain't gonna help him get to Heaven.
The fact that theological belief is more important than how one lives one's life is, therefore, ridiculous as far as I am concerned and is yet another reason why I could never be a "Born Again Christian".
You shall know them by their fruits. No matter what and how the world judges someone, only God can judge the hearts of men. Ghandi said, I love your Jesus, and His teachings, but I don't like the religion. Well, I can relate to that, as this is how I feel as well.
Being born-again is something few really understand. Remember that Ghandi was a lawyer, rich at that, who saw the persecution of his people in south africa, and then was persecuted himself. He resisted by turning the other cheek, and lived out the remainder of his life refusing to submit to any master other than God.
So, as quick as people are to judge, if the world lived as Ghandi lived, what a world it would be!! He is one of my favorite people in history, as well as Mother Teresa. Very few left their marks as an example to follow, but they sure picked up the cross of Christ and carried it unto their deaths.
What is so great about America, and God, is that that it is your choice.
I for one don't call myself a born-again Christian, because that's like saying it twice (what's the word I'm looking for here, that describes it? Oxymoron means opposites, what is it when they're the same?) If you're born again, then you're a Christian. You can't be a Christian without being born again. Just a little fyi.
Anyway...I for one, as a Christian, do not believe John Couey would be saved just for confessing his belief in Jesus on his death bed. I think there is more to being saved than just confessing. Now, had he, before his death bed, actually believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized, then I would say yes, he is saved, and the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE thing he did to that little girl would be forgiven. (It is for God to judge his heart).
As for Ghandi, I really don't know what to say, other than the fact that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. If that stops you from being a "BAC", I'm sorry... no one here said that. Jesus did.
Matt 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 12:33-37 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Luke 6:39-47 Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Col. 1:3-6 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Matt 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 12:33-37 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Luke 6:39-47 Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Col. 1:3-6 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
John 14:6.."Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father, but by me.
If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him, not me.
What is so great about America, and God, is that that it is your choice.
I for one don't call myself a born-again Christian, because that's like saying it twice (what's the word I'm looking for here, that describes it? Oxymoron means opposites, what is it when they're the same?) If you're born again, then you're a Christian. You can't be a Christian without being born again. Just a little fyi.
They are the ones who refer to themselves as "born again Christians". If someone is baptized in a church other than one of their's and has a version of Christianity different from their's, they still don't call them "Born Again". If someone gets baptized in a Catholic Church as an adult and accepts Christ that way, most of the BACs would still not consider him a Christian. It is there term, not mine.
They think Christianity is a club for like minded people (suburbianites who live behind a white picket fence, wear sweaters, vote for Bush and drive their kids around in SUVs and never eat Sushi because it's against one of the 10,000,000 unwritten commandments) and not a religion.
Quote:
As for Ghandi, I really don't know what to say, other than the fact that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. If that stops you from being a "BAC", I'm sorry... no one here said that. Jesus did.
"Through him" what? Through saying "I Believe!" and speaking some tongues and dancing around like you're having a seizure or by living and understanding his teachings? "Though him" by having Christ as a sadomasochismic ornament who's only purpose is to suffer and die, or "through him" as in his living example?
If you go by the living example interrupation...then how does that not include Gandhi and does include Couey?
In other words...Gandhi, one of the greatest men of peace the world has ever known, who faught for non-violence, human rights and independence and stuck to the concept of non-violence even as he was attacked himself and his enemies laughed...is burning in hell according to the BACs.This man of peace, who gave most of his wealth to the poor and had only two robes, some sandles and his glasses when he died, died a Hindu. Though he might of defended the weak and taught the world non-violence and tolerance, simply because of the fact that he never accepted Jesus Christ as his "lord and saviour" and rejected Hinduism, he is burning in hell.
Catholics do not believe this. I don't have my Catechism in front of me, but I looked this up before because I was curious. Catholics believe that people who do good deeds but are not Christians will still go to heaven if they live out exemplary lives in Christ, but were partially ignorant to Christ.
How would native Americans be able to go to heaven if they have no access to Jesus or his message? Gandhi did have access to Jesus, but he claimed to believe in all religions. He thought each one had good aspects to it. He thought of religions as branches off of a large tree.
You can’t put everyone who is born again into the same box.
Scripture does not support once-saved-always-saved.
Special words spoken once will not gain a person entrance into the presence of the almighty holy God.
We must be led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14) producing the fruit of the Spirit in our own lives.
We must also pursue growing in love, wisdom and usefulness.
but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
In order for this journey to begin, the Holy Spirit must be present in a person’s life and the heart must be yielded to being reshaped according to God’s will.
This is what is meant by being born again.
Jesus seemed to be of the opinion that it was a necessity.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
John 3:5-7
If one’s hope is to partake in the resurrection unto life, the indwelling Holy Spirit is vital.
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:11
When He enters a person, that person become a new creation in Christ – born again.
I’ll take that any day over religion theology and dogma.
Good deeds without Christ, are insufficient.
Good deeds wrought with a only Christian label, are of the flesh and also are insufficient.
The righteousness of Jesus Christ and the blood He shed for our sin - is the only acceptable way to the Father.
He is the Way the Truth and the Life. Not one person comes to God, unless they have faith in the blood of the Lamb of God.
Last edited by Richio; 01-03-2009 at 10:14 PM..
Reason: forgot to type "not"
Well, it is not my ONLY disagreement with Born Again Christians (BACs) , but it is one of my larger ones. They believe that it is not what we do, but simply what we profess and believe, that saves us from damnation. Works cannot save us, only saying that Chirst is "my lord and saviour" can. ..........
Oh Victoria, Victoria, Victoria. You just don't understand repentance and faith It is not enough for you to know Christ. The real question is, does Jesus know you?! If He doesn't it doesn't matter you say or thing, you are doomed.
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Ye shall know them by their fruits.
It is not enough for you to know Christ. The real question is, does Jesus know you?! If He doesn't it doesn't matter you say or thing, you are doomed.
