U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-08-2009, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,042 posts, read 30,733,533 times
Reputation: 12223

Advertisements

I believe bible prophecies and others use this archers method...

While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on
a tree with an arrow shot perfectly into the center. A few yards away
he noticed several more targets, each with arrows in the center.
Later, he met the talented archer and he asked him, "How did you
become such an expert that you always get your arrows into the center
of the bull's-eye?" "It's not difficult," responded the
archer, "First I shoot the arrow and then I draw the circle."

REFUTING CHRISTIAN "PROOF TEXTS" (http://qumran.com/Refuting_Christianity/refuting_christian_proof_texts.htm - broken link)


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-08-2009, 06:44 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,656 posts, read 3,745,899 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Actually zonababe, it was a story written down about 2500 years ago, and if you have a Bible you can read the prophecy for yourself. It is found in Ezekiel 44:1-3.
Actually Campbell, it was written about 5th or 6th century BC about what had happened about 1900 years prior........
Again, this is part of the "Telephone" game, in this case though, the Rescribing of Jewish History after returning from exile in Babylon. Archeological evidence points to these writings and many of the characters (such as Moses) as fiction (as in Moses never existed, was just a legend) and traces the origins of these writings. These prophecies were not written that early. They were about events (fictional) and characters (fictional) but they were not contemporary.

Through history, we can see evolution of the Jewish gods from pluralism to Ba'al to Yahweh We can see influences of Egyptian mythology (hell) Roman ritual (Mirthaism) all blending with splintered Judaeism to form Christianity


I like the analogy you made Zonababe about Jesus sticking his toe in the water and perhaps later being heralded to walk upon it.
I agree here with Bishop Spong's suggestion (Jesus for the non Religious) That whatever it was that Jesus taught, and possibly the demeanor or the way he taught, was so different that people who heard him simply had nothing prior to which to compare. Therefore, they elevated him after generations to a "god" status out simply because he seemed so far ahead of what everyone else was doing.
ANYWAY
It is so easy to write revisionist history. Schools do it every year to update textbooks.
Consider first WHERE these books of the Torah and Old Testament actually originated and keep that in context when trying to prove prophesy. We know that the Gospels were written well after the movement had taken root, and were meant to revise the places and times (Although they still did not get it right) To make it look like this Jesus was the Messiah. Written after the fact to make it look like it fulfilled prophecy.
Like me writing an article on Monday telling everyone how the Steelers are going to win the Super Bowl. Wait, it already happened, but I would have to make it look like I wrote everything on Saturday instead, before the big game happened.

Prophecy? no way !!!! Not even a lucky Guess!
BTW, the Bible is not the only book people use (or MISUSE) in this manner. Just look and see how many writings of Nostradamus are made into TV specials each week......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 09:35 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,686,957 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Actually Campbell, it was written about 5th or 6th century BC about what had happened about 1900 years prior........
Again, this is part of the "Telephone" game, in this case though, the Rescribing of Jewish History after returning from exile in Babylon. Archeological evidence points to these writings and many of the characters (such as Moses) as fiction (as in Moses never existed, was just a legend) and traces the origins of these writings. These prophecies were not written that early. They were about events (fictional) and characters (fictional) but they were not contemporary.

Through history, we can see evolution of the Jewish gods from pluralism to Ba'al to Yahweh We can see influences of Egyptian mythology (hell) Roman ritual (Mirthaism) all blending with splintered Judaeism to form Christianity


I like the analogy you made Zonababe about Jesus sticking his toe in the water and perhaps later being heralded to walk upon it.
I agree here with Bishop Spong's suggestion (Jesus for the non Religious) That whatever it was that Jesus taught, and possibly the demeanor or the way he taught, was so different that people who heard him simply had nothing prior to which to compare. Therefore, they elevated him after generations to a "god" status out simply because he seemed so far ahead of what everyone else was doing.
ANYWAY
It is so easy to write revisionist history. Schools do it every year to update textbooks.
Consider first WHERE these books of the Torah and Old Testament actually originated and keep that in context when trying to prove prophesy. We know that the Gospels were written well after the movement had taken root, and were meant to revise the places and times (Although they still did not get it right) To make it look like this Jesus was the Messiah. Written after the fact to make it look like it fulfilled prophecy.
Like me writing an article on Monday telling everyone how the Steelers are going to win the Super Bowl. Wait, it already happened, but I would have to make it look like I wrote everything on Saturday instead, before the big game happened.

Prophecy? no way !!!! Not even a lucky Guess!
BTW, the Bible is not the only book people use (or MISUSE) in this manner. Just look and see how many writings of Nostradamus are made into TV specials each week......


No, the Book of Ezekiel was not about events that occured 1900 years before the sixth century B.C. I have no idea where you got that belief. Numerous chapters in Ezekiel speak of Israels future, and the latter days and the latter years.

And you can go shove your Archeological writings about Moses being fictional. Recent archeological discoveries have revealed that the events spoken of in the Scriptures, especially the crossing of the Red Sea really did happened. And for years they use to say King David and Israels two Kingdoms were fiction as well. Yet recent discoveries at Tel Dan have revealed that David and Israels two Kingdoms did exist. And this discovery once again silenced the non believers. Yet, if all you are about is to deny the Bible, I'm sure you will find a way to ignore those discoveries. The East gate prophecy was written long before its fulfillment, and only someone who is in serious denial could believe otherwise.
And you are right, it is easy to write revisionist history, however if you keep pushing your false beliefs about Moses ect. You would be the one who believes such revisionist history. The East Gate Prophecy was fullfilled over a thousand years after the prophecy was written. And it was fulfilled by non believers in the Bible. And I can assure you it's fulfillment has nothing to do, with the "Telephone" game.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 09:45 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,656 posts, read 3,745,899 times
Reputation: 3920
Actually, the books were written BY scribes of Daid's kingdom about events that happened 1900 years before, again based on legend. I did not deny that David's Kingdom was real, I am denying that Moses was real, and I would, now that you mention it, place the Red Sea story in the same fictional realms as the Garden of Eden, Creationsim (Biblical) Noah's ark/Flood Myth , the one about that guy being swallowed by the giant fish as punishment, Etc etc ad nauseum
The fact is, these are mythic patterns that fit into the broader definition of religion, including events that cannot be proven empirically (van Ball and vab Beek 1985)
Legend and myth clearly DO need only a few generations to evolve; 1900 years is more than ample time
Remember, wide spread acceptance of a myth as fact surely does not implicate it as factual or even truthful; it is simply an indication that people believe it to be true (Spong 2006 , Hitchens 2008)
(I am cautioned not to plagarize as that is the ONLY thing not tolerated on this board)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 10:07 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,686,957 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Actually, the books were written BY scribes of Daid's kingdom about events that happened 1900 years before, again based on legend. I did not deny that David's Kingdom was real, I am denying that Moses was real, and I would, now that you mention it, place the Red Sea story in the same fictional realms as the Garden of Eden, Creationsim (Biblical) Noah's ark/Flood Myth , the one about that guy being swallowed by the giant fish as punishment, Etc etc ad nauseum
The fact is, these are mythic patterns that fit into the broader definition of religion, including events that cannot be proven empirically (van Ball and vab Beek 1985)
Legend and myth clearly DO need only a few generations to evolve; 1900 years is more than ample time
Remember, wide spread acceptance of a myth as fact surely does not implicate it as factual or even truthful; it is simply an indication that people believe it to be true (Spong 2006 , Hitchens 2008)
(I am cautioned not to plagarize as that is the ONLY thing not tolerated on this board)
Myths are not marked of by red granit columns with archain Hebrew letters chisled in them with the names of Mizraim, Pharaoh, Moses, and Yahweh carved in them. And between the columns in the Red Sea, divers have found numerous coral incrused chariot wheels, and chariot parts, human, and horse bones, ect. It is revealed evidence that converts myth to a fact. Consider link below.

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/redsea.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 12:01 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,656 posts, read 3,745,899 times
Reputation: 3920
This can go on and on because for everything you will offer as proof, I will have a readily available disproof, such as this
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/wo.../03exodus.html and this one The Yam Suph: "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds"

The Original Commentary and post of this thread was an observation as to how or why a culture will create a diety reflective of themselves, VS. why a god would only choose to make one revelation to one group of people but then make a totally different one to another. Why would an all-knowing and all powerful diety choose, for example, to favor the jews over everyone else, but then periodically abandon them , allowing them to be enslaved and abused? Why would the rest of the world not have been told that Jews were the chosen people of this supreme omnipotent force? And what about the Non-Jews? Does this supreme all -knowing all powerful force hate others, everyone from the Pharoah of Egypt (Whom you say was drowned in the red sea)? And while we are on the subject, did god show up to Homo habilis and tell him that in the future he would choose jews as his chosen race, but that they would have to evolve more first? What about Native Americans? they were geographically cut off from the Middle East, so how does an all knowing and all powerful diety fit them into his picture? Does the all-knowing diety hate them too, because they are not part of his "chosen" tribe??
NO The Diety was created by the jews to be the God OF The Jews. A superhuman with an ego problem. NO More, no less. He was even said to look like them. Was he in fact a real, tangible being? NO Probably not (One can never absolutely prove the non-existance of something) BUT more importantly it cannot even come close to being proven as a positive either, and the proof is overwhelming of it as a creation of man.

The Fact remains, there is overwhelming scholarly and intellectual evidence to support the formation of myth and to support the theory of evolution of locality in regards to Diety Evolution than to ignore.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 02:50 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,686,957 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
This can go on and on because for everything you will offer as proof, I will have a readily available disproof, such as this
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/wo.../03exodus.html and this one The Yam Suph: "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds"

The Original Commentary and post of this thread was an observation as to how or why a culture will create a diety reflective of themselves, VS. why a god would only choose to make one revelation to one group of people but then make a totally different one to another. Why would an all-knowing and all powerful diety choose, for example, to favor the jews over everyone else, but then periodically abandon them , allowing them to be enslaved and abused? Why would the rest of the world not have been told that Jews were the chosen people of this supreme omnipotent force? And what about the Non-Jews? Does this supreme all -knowing all powerful force hate others, everyone from the Pharoah of Egypt (Whom you say was drowned in the red sea)? And while we are on the subject, did god show up to Homo habilis and tell him that in the future he would choose jews as his chosen race, but that they would have to evolve more first? What about Native Americans? they were geographically cut off from the Middle East, so how does an all knowing and all powerful diety fit them into his picture? Does the all-knowing diety hate them too, because they are not part of his "chosen" tribe??
NO The Diety was created by the jews to be the God OF The Jews. A superhuman with an ego problem. NO More, no less. He was even said to look like them. Was he in fact a real, tangible being? NO Probably not (One can never absolutely prove the non-existance of something) BUT more importantly it cannot even come close to being proven as a positive either, and the proof is overwhelming of it as a creation of man.

The Fact remains, there is overwhelming scholarly and intellectual evidence to support the formation of myth and to support the theory of evolution of locality in regards to Diety Evolution than to ignore.
What you have just offered as proof is one mans opinion, and it is obvious he like so many others like him have been looking in the wrong place. Your link points to Mt. Sinia being in Egypt. The real Mt. Sinia is near the real Red Sea Crossing site, and it is located in Saudi Arabia, not Egypt. Your link is based on the errors of old world thinking. God choose the Jewish people, because He knew they would be able to write the Bible and to preserve it for future generations. God never abandoned the Jews, they turned their back on Him. Yet God tells us that in the latter days He would allow them to return to Israel and that they would retake Jerusalem in that time. The indians of the New World knew of the God of the Bible, because stories found in the Bible were repeated by them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,494 posts, read 10,085,137 times
Reputation: 6839
As a Native American and a member of the Tsalagi, we knew nothing of your God or your holy book until the white man brought Christianity to our land and tried to destroy and decimate our culture and beliefs, Christians claim to be persecuted and yet they turn around and do the same thing themselves to the native people of this land who lived here for thousands of years without your Christianity and sacred books and lived in peace and harmony with the land. So don't go telling a big lie.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 06:20 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,656 posts, read 3,745,899 times
Reputation: 3920
Well Campbell, come on now Everything ON HERE is opinion....mine, yours, his, hers....Everything everyone posts is OPINION!!! that is the nature of this board
I happen to favor the opinion of educated intellectuals, including anthropologists and archeologists over follwers of an ancient religion. I favor the opinion of Bishop Spng, because he is an intellectual. Also Joseph Campbell, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Jawking The list goes on and on and on
Who do I not favor? I tend to shy away from those who see myth as fact, who see the world as black and white or all or nothing. I tend to shy away from propagandists, as they offer no message or solution, only a commentary on the problem. I tend to question those who have a graduate degree in theology. My experience, dealing directly with this (Having once applied long ago and then deciding not to go) is that a Masters degree in Theology is yours to be had, all you have to do is pay the money down and agree with everything you hear. No intellegence required. That is not to say that there are no intellectuals with a theology degree; Shelby SPong is a great example. But they are the very rare exception, not the norm.
SO when I see scientific evidence which proves or disproves something (Such as evolution vs creationism) I tend to follow facts. Unfortunately the Bible is NOT fact, it is myth, and should only ever be consifdered as such.

The comment about Native Americans was this: Why didn;t some all knowing all powerful diety take and appear to the Native Americans and inform them that some tribe which they had no idea even existed before Euroeans came is notw designated as the "chosen ones?" And probably the most compelling question of all: IF this all knowing and all powerful diety gave the Bible to His select followers, then why did he have to go years later and give the Koran to another group? Did he not get it right the first time? Or did he not know that it would fail? Questions to ponder, all of which point back to an evolution of God in Locality.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2009, 06:41 PM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,588,744 times
Reputation: 811
the OP named this thread God Evolution and Locality

should there perhaps be some basic clarification about knowledge (which is available, necessary and useful) and free thinking (likely by those not educated to / with this knowledge) - instead of this ongoing interception with Bible quotations?

if so, then

i would start with the question if knowledge or thinking were considered a priority each, or if in those ancient cultures it all just has been dialogue and interaction in harmony and kinship ... until some intellect was breaking loose to challenge all of this..?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top