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Old 04-11-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,984 posts, read 18,582,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
It has been my experience, that everytime God speaks to me, it was to help me secure a Job, or to tell me that my wife was going to have a child, or to heal someone, or to incourage me to continue to follow Him. There is always reason. If it was just mental illness, there would be no real purpose in hearing the voice outside of nonsense. Nor would it be a word that fortold an unpredictable future event.
Those that are delusional and hear voices, see things ect. do not know that they are not real....If they did , then they are not really mental ill...Take you choice as to where you fit in....Personally I think you are just being dishonest with yourself and others if there is no mental problem.
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:02 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 12,607,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
You know, you guys were asked for years to consider and to test the figurines of El Toro mountain. Yet, none from your side had any intrest in doing so. If you want to know the truth, have at it and do the foot work. Every test so far confirms them as ancient. Yet even if such a test were not done, how do you explain how the figurines from 1945, could have such advanced knowledge of dinosaurs anatomy? Even the science of that time was not aware of some of the dinosaurs displayed in the collection. So your 50 year theory, is still muted.

Four test have been done on them, and none of your people were intrested enought to do (EVEN ONE) of those tests. Why is that? Without a doubt, I am not a scientist. Yet, I can look at the facts that have been presented by others. And the only thing I see, are those who had the test done, were not believers in Evolution. Because true believers were not intrested. Now you come here with your empty opinions, and put down the conclusions of those who went before you, only because their findings do not agree with your personal beliefs. It is your group, that has (IGNORED THE OBVIOUS).

No scientific review after 60 years?

I'm not the one ignoring the (OBVIOUS) here.
I just looked into these figurines and I cannot believe this is what you've been going on about.


Quote:
  1. The figurines show every evidence of being recent folk art, fraudulently buried in an archeological excavation. De Peso (1953) made the following observations:
    • The surfaces of the figurines were new. They were not marred by a patina or coating of soluble salts characteristic of genuinely old artifacts from the same area. The owner said none of the figures had been washed in acid. Edges of depressions were sharp and new. No dirt was packed into crevices.
    • Genuine archeological relics of fragile items are almost always found in fragments. Finding more than 30,000 such items in pristine condition is unheard of. The excavators of the artifacts were "neither careful nor experienced" in their field technique, yet no marks of their shovels, mattocks, or picks were noted in any of the 32,000 specimens. Some figurines were broken, but the breaks were unworn and apparently deliberate to suggest age. No parts were missing.
    • "The author spent two days watching the excavators burrow and dig; during the course of their search they managed to break a number of authentic prehistoric objects. On the second day the two struck a cache and the author examined the material in situ. The cache had been very recently buried by digging a down sloping tunnel into the black fill dirt of the prehistoric room. This fill ran to a depth of approximately 1.30 m. Within the stratum there were authentic Tarascan sherds, obsidian blades, tripod metates, manos, etc., but these objects held no concern for the excavators. In burying the cache of figurines, the natives had unwittingly cut some 15 cms. below the black fill into the sterile red earth floor of the prehistoric room. In back-filling the tunnel they mixed this red sterile earth with black earth; the tracing of their original excavation was, as a result, a simple task" (Di Peso 1953, 388).
    • Fresh manure was found in the tunnel fill.
    • Fingerprints were found in freshly packed earth that filled an excavated bowl.
  2. The story of their discovery gives a motive for fraud. Waldemar Julsrud, who hired workers to excavate a Chupicuaro site in 1945, paid workers a peso apiece for intact figurines. It very well may have been more economical for the workers to make figurines than to discover and excavate them. Given the quantity that he received, the contribution to the peasants' economy would have been substantial.
  3. The figurines are not from the Chupicuaro. They came from within a single-component Tarascan ruin. The Tarascan are post-classical and historical, emerging between 900 and 1522 C.E.
  4. If authentic, the figurines imply even more archeological anomalies:
    • If the figurines really were based on actual dinosaurs, why have no dinosaur fossils been found in the Acambaro region?
    • Why did no other Mexican cultures record any dinosaurs?
    • What caused the dinosaurs to disappear in the last 1,100 years?
  5. There is no credible information to support the claims. The only sources are pseudoscience journalists, creationists, and crackpots, who have obvious ulterior motives for gullibility. Their own dating results are discordant with each other and with the ages of the native cultures, and even attempting to do carbon dating on the inorganic figurines shows their incompetence.
References:
  1. Di Peso, Charles C., 1953. (see below)
Further Reading:

Di Peso, Charles C., 1953. The clay figurines of Acambaro, Guanajuato, Mexico. American Antiquity 18(4): 388-389.
CH710.2: Acambaro dinosaur figurines

http://ooparts.us/acambaro-figures.htm (broken link)

Last edited by Braunwyn; 04-11-2009 at 01:17 PM.. Reason: extra link
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:21 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 12,607,288 times
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And the source for this figurine hoax at bible.ca states that radiocarbon tests were done on these nick nacks. I'm confused.
World Site of Dinosaur Figurines of Mexico: evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexisted!
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:25 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,437 posts, read 3,710,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
And the source for this figurine hoax at bible.ca states that radiocarbon tests were done on these nick nacks. I'm confused.
World Site of Dinosaur Figurines of Mexico: evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexisted!
Yeah he will tell you that they tested the surface carbon deposits - slam dunk if you ask me

Welcome to the debacle (this is not a debate)
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:12 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 12,607,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Yeah he will tell you that they tested the surface carbon deposits - slam dunk if you ask me
That would be a pretty silly response. Based on what I've been reading, apparently from Di Peso, it looks like this whole thing was resolved as a hoax decades ago.

Quote:
Welcome to the debacle (this is not a debate)
Yea, same old same old. Has he posted the raw data from the supposed, hopefully published (though not likely), thermoluminescent dating?
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:32 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,437 posts, read 3,710,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
That would be a pretty silly response. Based on what I've been reading, apparently from Di Peso, it looks like this whole thing was resolved as a hoax decades ago.
Repeat, Recycle, spin
Quote:
Yea, same old same old. Has he posted the raw data from the supposed, hopefully published (though not likely), thermoluminescent dating?
No he likes the flexi-preferential C14 dating. When you have time read this entire thread lots of
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:44 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,646,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Campbell34 wrote:

For the same reason that prestigious scientific organizations aren't spending money studying crop circles or alien cattle mutilations. There's nothing to be gained from studying something that is obviously nonsense.
Well, if it was just nonsense, they could of pretty much prove that years ago. Yet no one from your side appears eager to do that. You have the evidence which is just south of the border, yet no one from your side will touch it with a 10 foot pole. They treat the figurines, as if they are made of Kryptonite. Of course, if such evidence did not effect how some may view Evolution, I'm sure scientist would of been all over them by now. They send people to study lesser finds like this all over the earth. This is like someone telling you about the Egyptian Pyramids, and then someone from your side stands up and states. (There's nothing to be gained from studying something that is obvioulsy nonsense.) LOL

You have others who have taken the time to confirm the age of these figurines. You have scientists who have confirmed the figurines. You have labs that have confirmed the figurines. Yet your own opinion appears to be based on nothing but blind faith denial that is neither scholarly, or scientific. This is a perfect example of science filtering out historical evidence. The only reason these thousands of figurines (HAVE NOT) been reviewed, is because of what their reality would do to the theory of Evolution. This is a perfect case, of scientific (HYPOCRISY).
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:20 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 12,607,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well, if it was just nonsense, they could of pretty much prove that years ago. Yet no one from your side appears eager to do that.
I'm sure this has been brought up, but I don't see what the big deal is. Can't the owner/holder of the figurines just send them off to a lab or a prof at whatever local uni? In my old lab, we'd run whatever samples for a bit of $$$. We needed the money so we'd take on little projects for researchers that didn't have the necessary capabilities to test their samples. I'm pretty sure that's what rifleman (sp?) was offering, no?

Get me a sample and send me an SOP for thermoluminescent dating and perhaps I can give it a go.

Quote:
You have others who have taken the time to confirm the age of these figurines. You have scientists who have confirmed the figurines. You have labs that have confirmed the figurines.
Well, where's the publication? I want to look at it.
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:34 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,646,357 times
Reputation: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Repeat, Recycle, spin

No he likes the flexi-preferential C14 dating. When you have time read this entire thread lots of
1. So you believe that Di Peso was able to consider all 33,000 figurines in four hours? Was that the scientific review? LOL

2. And why did Di Peso confirm the find was ancient while he was in Mexico, yet changed his story when he got back to the states?

3. And why did other scientist debunk Di Peso findings?

4. And why would you believe a devout believe in Evolution who spent only 2 days down in Mexico, yet ignore all the others scientist who spent months working the site?

5. Why would you ignore the dates that came back from all the labs that did the time testing?

6. And why did believers in Evolution refuse to do a serious study of the figurines?

7. Why did the figurines found in 1945, display a greater knowledge of dinosaur anatomy, than was known at the time they were uncovered?

8. And why did some of the figurines in the collection, display dinosaurs that had not yet been discovered ?

You don't have to answer. Most of the other believers in evolution have ignored these questions for years. When your a blind faith believer in Evolution, you don't have to consider other evidence anyway. They call this the scientific method. And anyone who brings this to their attention they accuse of, (Repeat Recycle spin). When you have no scientific review, you have to throw something at us, so I guess just accuse them of (Repeat Recycle spin). Yes science at work, (REPEAT RECYCLE SPIN). And who said science does not have an answer? (REPEAT RECYCLE SPIN). LOL

Please explain how these figurienes came to be? "Science is on our side. (REPEAT RECYCLE SPIN)". LOL
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:47 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 12,607,288 times
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Who are these other scientists and where are the publications? What's the title, journal, and author(s) at least so I can look it up.
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