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So you don't know how it came about, you don't know how it began, or why it started expanding. So many unanswered questions.
Quote:
Yet you don't have this problem with an animate, intelligent, complex being always existing.
The difference though, is that this "animate, intelligent, complex being" is not the universe itself, nor is it a part of the universe. Do you see my point? Something cannot create itself. The universe cannot create itself, or cause itself to exist, and the singularity could not simply cause itself to exist. SOMETHING had to exist outside of it that was uncaused.
<edit> BTW.....I want to thank you for the good conversation. I've intentionally ignored the other posters on this thread for the reason that I just want to address you--and go back and forth on it. Thanks for being respectful.
Last edited by BaptistFundie; 04-13-2018 at 12:24 PM..
04-13-2018, 03:43 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
So you don't know how it came about, you don't know how it began, or why it started expanding. So many unanswered questions.
The difference though, is that this "animate, intelligent, complex being" is not the universe itself, nor is it a part of the universe. Do you see my point? Something cannot create itself. The universe cannot create itself, or cause itself to exist, and the singularity could not simply cause itself to exist. SOMETHING had to exist outside of it that was uncaused.
That does not necessarily follow. There are theories about an eternal 'universe.' That is a quantum reality that is eternal.
Something has to be eternal or nothing would exist. Now if you say it is god/s then you have a similar problem. Saying God is eternal does not solve anything anymore than saying the universe/energy/quantum-realm is eternal.
Anther problem is how did a being create stuff, that is not part of him in any way, out of nothing - from nothing nothing comes. This is what you are advocating - Creatio ex nihilo.
Could you charge me with providing visible tangible evidence of the existence of something I have never seen with my eyes?
Have you ever seen the wind?
Have you ever seen a round earth with your eyes?
But i have been the recipient of the results of their existence daily
And so it is with god
04-13-2018, 03:55 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
Could you charge me with providing visible tangible evidence of the existence of something I have never seen with my eyes?
Have you ever seen the wind?
Have you ever seen a round earth with your eyes?
But i have been the recipient of the results of their existence daily
And so it is with god
I'd simply ask you for evidence for the existence of something. And then see how it measures up to a conclusion that it is a god apart from having a more reasonable explanation. Although you have no explanations just assertions regarding personal feelings.
You're right. We DON'T know. Now if only our schools taught that.
we do. We teach we have two ideas. Form something or from nothing. Then we can take some guesses but ultimility we don't know. we that understand, well, understand.
If you have been watching me bap, you know I address non-science, belief based, anti-religious atheist that cry all sorts of things that are, quite frankly, as good as your god. I address their personal emotional need to describe the universe as no more valid than your personal need.
What I, and those like me, do that literal religious people don't do is put a "why" in there. There is no need for some of us to have a "why". We don't know enough to say 'why" and there is absolutely no reason, except personal emotional need, to have a "grand why".
What my denomination of atheism does is address what is going on around us to the best of our ability. We don't fear religion so there is no need for us to change, distort, or minimize the elegance of the universe and the life contained in it. We also have no need of the christian god type thing. There is just no point in an "overseer" past controlling the more intistual of our species. There is just no observations that end in that conclusion.
But, the people that think like I do really don't even have a problem with christian god believers or anti-religious people. we do have a problem when both groups try and "save" the rest of us.
You're right. We DON'T know. Now if only our schools taught that.
But so far as I know, only the scientifically supported Big bang is taught, not cosmic origins, because nobody is sure. It's only Creationists say they know the truth and want it taught in schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
So you don't know how it came about, you don't know how it began, or why it started expanding. So many unanswered questions.
The difference though, is that this "animate, intelligent, complex being" is not the universe itself, nor is it a part of the universe. Do you see my point? Something cannot create itself. The universe cannot create itself, or cause itself to exist, and the singularity could not simply cause itself to exist. SOMETHING had to exist outside of it that was uncaused.
<edit> BTW.....I want to thank you for the good conversation. I've intentionally ignored the other posters on this thread for the reason that I just want to address you--and go back and forth on it. Thanks for being respectful.
You can ignore me as much as you like but my mate Diogenes, who is hanging around and never mind his regular work will no doubt argue my points if he hasn't already got there ahead of me.
In this case, you are getting confused. How the cosmos of matter began is not known. Where the big Bang event came from IS considered pretty sure and the evidence that it expanded is solid. The Why is irrelevant. If it happened, Why is an academic question. In fact I see it as the compression of power without matter that could not be held in the same place and 'exploded'. But that's just my Take on it.
But all this whether evidence based or plausible speculation is better than an invisible being that didn't need to come from anywhere waving a magic wand and ..well, not making what it wanted as per Genesis but going through an incredibly long, convoluted and rather haphazard evolutionary process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
Could you charge me with providing visible tangible evidence of the existence of something I have never seen with my eyes?
Have you ever seen the wind?
Have you ever seen a round earth with your eyes?
But i have been the recipient of the results of their existence daily
And so it is with god
Wrong.
The wind can be very clearly demonstrated, even if air is not visible.
The round earth is verifiable with evidence.
God is not. If it was, you could produce better support than appealing to things we know of on evidence as though there was no evidence.
And you can save yourself the trouble of reciting the "Evidence" for God. I have been debating it for 40 years and have yet to see them come up with any "Evidence" worth a damn.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-14-2018 at 05:43 AM..
But so far as I know, only the scientifically supported Big bang is taught, not cosmic origins, because nobody is sure. It's only Creationists say they know and want it taught in schools.
Its stated like this: Loosely.
all the stars appear to be moving away from us. draw arrows on a piece of paper. Last year where would they be? 100 years ago where would they be? keeping going back, what happens to them all?
Then we used what math they had, came up with some new applications of math, then tested that math, the evidence that we are on the right track is the LHC, and other experimental devices.
then we ask them: Was it asked of you to use blind faith, or not use what you know? No, in fact, we encourage that you only use what you already know. Use your common sense. for now.
but trans, we also don't say "because we are atheists we must say "this or that". some of us aren't religious atheist. religious atheist shun, minimize, and "sortagod" anything that doesn't line up with that denomination's belief statement of atheism. Just like some theists claim "they aren't real theists".
So you don't know how it came about, you don't know how it began, or why it started expanding. So many unanswered questions.
Unanswered questions are good things. The moment you think you have all the answers is the moment you stop asking questions -- and then you stop learning and you stop growing.
Yeah, it's super-duper easy to read Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," then slam the Bible shut and smugly think, "Now I know everything I need to know about the universe."
Yep, you can do that. If you don't mind intellectual stagnation and accepting an unknown as an answer to another unknown.
"God dunnit" is not a satisfactory answer to those of us with an explorer's heart. I must say I find it mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age can literally accept "magic" as a valid explanation for anything. And, to substitute magic for actual knowledge is even more mind-blowing.
Apparently if science doesn't have all the answers right now, right this very second, then it must be wrong, always will be wrong, and magic will always be the only acceptable explanation for the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The difference though, is that this "animate, intelligent, complex being" is not the universe itself, nor is it a part of the universe. Do you see my point? Something cannot create itself. The universe cannot create itself, or cause itself to exist, and the singularity could not simply cause itself to exist. SOMETHING had to exist outside of it that was uncaused.
Yet another example of the "special pleading" fallacy.
"Why no, the universe couldn't have created itself -- something had to create it -- and that something is God. Who or what created God? Well, God is timeless, eternal, and has no beginning ..."
Right, because all you're really doing with that is moving the goal posts. Everything must have a first cause -- well, except my God, of course, and since we can invent whatever nifty superpowers we need to give him in order to avoid that prickly question of who/what created God, we'll just say (with no evidence) that God is eternal.
It must be nice to not have to play by the rules while expecting everyone else to play by the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
<edit> BTW.....I want to thank you for the good conversation. I've intentionally ignored the other posters on this thread for the reason that I just want to address you--and go back and forth on it. Thanks for being respectful.
Why are you even here? It's patently absurd to demonstrate the kind of anti-social behavior you do while remaining on a very social forum that MOST of us see as a community. You're the only one pointedly "ignoring" people and then bragging about it.
I know all you want is a Christians-only echo chamber -- you've made that abundently clear -- but this forum will never be that. So I ask again: Why are you even here? There are a plethora of religious forums all over the internet where you can converse only with those who agree with you. (Because agreeing is a euphemism for respect in your language).
Unanswered questions are good things. The moment you think you have all the answers is the moment you stop asking questions -- and then you stop learning and you stop growing.
Yeah, it's super-duper easy to read Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," then slam the Bible shut and smugly think, "Now I know everything I need to know about the universe."
Yep, you can do that. If you don't mind intellectual stagnation and accepting an unknown as an answer to another unknown.
"God dunnit" is not a satisfactory answer to those of us with an explorer's heart. I must say I find it mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age can literally accept "magic" as a valid explanation for anything. And, to substitute magic for actual knowledge is even more mind-blowing.
Apparently if science doesn't have all the answers right now, right this very second, then it must be wrong, always will be wrong, and magic will always be the only acceptable explanation for the universe.
Yet another example of the "special pleading" fallacy.
"Why no, the universe couldn't have created itself -- something had to create it -- and that something is God. Who or what created God? Well, God is timeless, eternal, and has no beginning ..."
Right, because all you're really doing with that is moving the goal posts. Everything must have a first cause -- well, except my God, of course, and since we can invent whatever nifty superpowers we need to give him in order to avoid that prickly question of who/what created God, we'll just say (with no evidence) that God is eternal.
It must be nice to not have to play by the rules while expecting everyone else to play by the book.
Why are you even here? It's patently absurd to demonstrate the kind of anti-social behavior you do while remaining on a very social forum that MOST of us see as a community. You're the only one pointedly "ignoring" people and then bragging about it.
I know all you want is a Christians-only echo chamber -- you've made that abundently clear -- but this forum will never be that. So I ask again: Why are you even here? There are a plethora of religious forums all over the internet where you can converse only with those who agree with you. (Because agreeing is a euphemism for respect in your language).
"Who created God " is the college kid question.
Atheist philosophers themselves have rejected that silly question.
Its an embarrassment to atheism that people like Dawkins keep ressurecting it in sloppy pop science paperbacks.
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but my mate Diogenes, who is hanging around and never mind his regular work 
will no doubt argue my points if he hasn't already got there ahead of me. 
