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"Not quite, many educated people claim to have knowledge of a higher being that governs the universe despite having spent years studying physics and biology"
Which educated people? I'm not sure what your point is. Define knowledge. Are you saying that scientists have belief of a higher being? Or that they have some proof? As far as superstitious beliefs, anyone can have them, I wasn't necessarily pointing at any particular belief system, only pointing to mind's tendency to create an explanation for a phenomena without using reason or intelligence to come to that conclusion. Isolated, uneducated people tend to be the most prone to superstitious beliefs. A human being's idea/conception of the universe, to believe or not believe in a deity, is a product of their physical environment and their limited experience and thus is not completely right or completely wrong, and therefore I choose neither alternative. The physical universe doesn't provide direct proof of a diety. If such proof exists, it is not to be found here.
"Man did not create science"
Well in some sense mankind created the system of science that we currently use. I am not claiming mankind created the universe, nor am I making a claim for how the universe came into being.
"Of course what came first between the egg and the chicken?" - the chicken came first and it came from something that wasn't quite a chicken. It is possible to implant a species in another species womb and have it grow and such. Plus there are other forms of reproduction besides sexual reproduction.
"i will surprise you with a thread on this subject"
Probably not. My problem is with the clarity of your thoughts. You are probably talking indirectly about a Hindu religion based belief that our thoughts create our reality and draw things to us according to our thoughts(the characteristics thereof). And this idea has been digested and spit on in numerous places on the internet and has been one of those new-age ideas.
"I am still curious did the atoms just existed like there was never a beginning?"
Wherever there is a beginning, there is an ending. Even if there is a beginning to this thing called the atom, it does not necessarily have to be the result of some deity. Religion, philosophy, all thoughts on God, gods, etc. come from humans, true or not. Not much research is really being done on the whole deity thing, lately. Mostly religious people are like here is a book, believe this. They aren't like here is your laboratory and these are your chemicals and this is the equation by which you can have proof of God. Until individuals using science turn their eyes to the God/deity dilemma, there will continue to be descension on this matter and no progress will be made.
"Genetic engineering is not a spontaneous creation it applies to E =MC^2 meaning life only creates life. yet we have all witness it, as nebula the dead star gives birth to other stars and solar systems. animals feeding on living organs nothing survives on nothing"
You are throwing together stuff and you fail to make a connection between genetic engineering and e=mc^2(which is the rest energy of a particle, which could be gotten if you could convert matter into light). Well depending on your definition of life, life can live off of non life. A plant eats air(CO2), water, sunlight, fixed nitrogen in the soil, and a few minerals from the soil. Oh, and what is your definition of life?
"I think the point you also made contradicted itself, the world or the universe did not just happened a mathematical or scientific law"
You obviously have a need to believe in a deity, which is fine. I just don't have that need. I did at one time though. Even if a deity in some part were responsible for the universe we find ourselves in, the universe would have to evolve according to scientific(mathematical) principles. The universe just didn't go poof and everything just be all ordered like it is. Many creationists believe basically in the poof theory, when reality seems to indicate otherwise. If a God or deity or higher power or such does exist then they have gone to great lengths to not only not intervene with its creation, but also to give us everything necessary to figure out things on our own via reason, imagination, and the 5 senses and maybe some other faculties. I guess some people are still afraid of death and the what ifs for what may happen after you die.
"it is like foolish educated scientist that claims a comet sped out in space without a cause. Like walking into a computer room and say that 'them computers accidentally appeared and even though they all run by electricity it is still an accident. This accounts to the mathematical and scientific behavior of the universe. Your brain needs help if you thought your argument was arbitrary."
You don't seem to know anything about science or the scientific establishment. Science people believe in causes. Some believe in a deity, some don't. I'm not sure what your obsession with accidents comes from. Not sure what you mean by the brain comment except just to be mean. You seem a bit frustrated. I have no problem with admitting there is much I don't know. Since I don't have knowledge of deities, I can't say they exist or don't exist for that matter. For me I have reached the limits of both established religions and philosophies and am trying to go deeper into the unknown and make sense of what I have seen. For me, there is more truth in saying you don't know than saying you know something to be true when you have no proof of such.
Also as a comment that is related to this whole discussion, on the topic of evolution. I don't think evolution is yet a complete theory. It has many holes or unexplained things left in it. I'm a hard science kind of guy and a complete hard science for it hasn't been really created yet. For one Darwin didn't have access to the genetic discoveries we now have. I think people are still adapting their mindset to the realities of genetics. But on the otherhand, evolution is a more satisfactory theory than just saying the universe went poof and all species on earth came into existence. To me to believe in that is just a tendency of the mind to be lazy and give up and choose an easy explanation, even if it isn't the correct one. If a deity does exist then they wouldn't have a problem with evolution for they are the one to have set it into motion. It is only the untrained mind that has a problem with evolution.
Nucleic acids that can self assemble without enzymes?
Then the building blocks of life would be a step BACKWARDS because it requires enzymes.
If you have a self assembling system, and you introduce a requirement for enzymes , you bring it to a screeching halt unless you're simply going to assume that the correct enzymes all providentially show up at the right time, in the right amounts.
Your attempt to bridge between these and the molecules that actually do support life on earth is crumbling into the canyon below.
And ya gotta love the terminology -- We've produced "pre-life".
Assuming something will happen that has not been shown to have ever happened is not scientific.
Maybe these guys are speaking as prophets or priests, but they're not speaking as scientists.
Which educated people? I'm not sure what your point is. Define knowledge. Are you saying that scientists have belief of a higher being? Or that they have some proof? As far as superstitious beliefs, anyone can have them, I wasn't necessarily pointing at any particular belief system, only pointing to mind's tendency to create an explanation for a phenomena without using reason or intelligence to come to that conclusion. Isolated, uneducated people tend to be the most prone to superstitious beliefs.
The 'uneducated' stereotype that you seem to wish to propagate is a product of your imagination and bias, not much else.
"..........In a 1997 survey in the science journal Nature, 40 percent of U.S. scientists said they believe in God—not just a creator, but a God to whom one can pray in expectation of an answer. That is the same percentage of scientists who were believers when the survey was taken 80 years earlier. But the number may have been higher if the question had simply asked about God's existence. While many scientists seem to have no problem with deism—the belief that God set the universe in motion and then walked away—others are more troubled with the concept of an intervening God........" from Evolution and Religion Can Coexist, Scientists Say
....the chicken came first and it came from something that wasn't quite a chicken. It is possible to implant a species in another species womb and have it grow and such. Plus there are other forms of reproduction besides sexual reproduction.....
So when the first 'chicken' arrived (having been produced by something that wasn't quite a chicken), what did it breed with?
If it was the first member of a 'new species' then the family line is gonna be short, isn't it?
(Hint: If it can still breed with members of the 'old species' then it's not a 'new species' after all.)
Each 'new species' must start with one member (unless a dozen are magically produced at the same moment in the same place).
So how does the family line perpetuate itself without a second? (Yes some species do not require sexual reproduction, but chickens need a male and a female.)
in response to c'ese la vie
"The 'uneducated' stereotype that you seem to wish to propagate is a product of your imagination and bias, not much else."
stereotype-oversimplification of members of a class/group to have certain traits.Stereotype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Superstition is a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge.Superstition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm not talking about any particular group, so. I'm not saying a belief in God is by definition a superstition belief, though it could be. That statement follows naturally from the definition of superstition.
"40 percent of U.S. scientists said they believe in God"
Ok, so what, some scientists have a belief in God. That is not any big surprise. I'm not saying God doesn't exist only that noone has presented any proof of such, either for or against, only that at least in the physical reality no higher entity than humankind exists.
"what did it breed with..."
The first chicken breed with another chicken, its respective brother or sister. More than 1 member of that species was created at once in the batch of eggs from the bird like, but non chicken creature. It may have been possible for the first chicken to have breed with its parents species that it came from, but just didn't because of mate preference due to differences in appearance. Eventually the previous species it came from went extinct. Basically for some reason the germ cells were changed. One potential reason is an endogenous retrovirus. Any change in the somatic(body) cells of a complex organism is unlikely to result in a new species. Basically a change had to happen to the reproductive cells.
Oh, it is possible in the past birds were capable of asexual reproduction, but not really sure if this was the case.
Jackdoneking If somebody can show just one piece of real evidence of macro-evolution then I will be the first to convert. And atheists don’t turn the argument around to try and put the obligation of evidence on the theists, just show the real evidence so we can accept it and happily move along. Thanks
You don't seem to get it...no atheist I have ever known or heard of is into converting anyone. We tend to leave that to those who need to shore up their own faith by convincing others.
One either wants to be liberated from the complex maze of nonsense religions deal in, the control which they exert and the astounding ego trip of believing that there is a guy in the sky who looks just like us!
Most of us, I feel sure, understand that latter day gods were created in man's image...not the other way around.
.
"Not quite, many educated people claim to have knowledge of a higher being that governs the universe despite having spent years studying physics and biology"
Which educated people? I'm not sure what your point is. Define knowledge. Are you saying that scientists have belief of a higher being? Or that they have some proof? As far as superstitious beliefs, anyone can have them, I wasn't necessarily pointing at any particular belief system, only pointing to mind's tendency to create an explanation for a phenomena without using reason or intelligence to come to that conclusion. Isolated, uneducated people tend to be the most prone to superstitious beliefs. A human being's idea/conception of the universe, to believe or not believe in a deity, is a product of their physical environment and their limited experience and thus is not completely right or completely wrong, and therefore I choose neither alternative. The physical universe doesn't provide direct proof of a diety. If such proof exists, it is not to be found here.
"Man did not create science"
Well in some sense mankind created the system of science that we currently use. I am not claiming mankind created the universe, nor am I making a claim for how the universe came into being.
"Of course what came first between the egg and the chicken?" - the chicken came first and it came from something that wasn't quite a chicken. It is possible to implant a species in another species womb and have it grow and such. Plus there are other forms of reproduction besides sexual reproduction.
"i will surprise you with a thread on this subject"
Probably not. My problem is with the clarity of your thoughts. You are probably talking indirectly about a Hindu religion based belief that our thoughts create our reality and draw things to us according to our thoughts(the characteristics thereof). And this idea has been digested and spit on in numerous places on the internet and has been one of those new-age ideas.
"I am still curious did the atoms just existed like there was never a beginning?"
Wherever there is a beginning, there is an ending. Even if there is a beginning to this thing called the atom, it does not necessarily have to be the result of some deity. Religion, philosophy, all thoughts on God, gods, etc. come from humans, true or not. Not much research is really being done on the whole deity thing, lately. Mostly religious people are like here is a book, believe this. They aren't like here is your laboratory and these are your chemicals and this is the equation by which you can have proof of God. Until individuals using science turn their eyes to the God/deity dilemma, there will continue to be descension on this matter and no progress will be made.
"Genetic engineering is not a spontaneous creation it applies to E =MC^2 meaning life only creates life. yet we have all witness it, as nebula the dead star gives birth to other stars and solar systems. animals feeding on living organs nothing survives on nothing"
You are throwing together stuff and you fail to make a connection between genetic engineering and e=mc^2(which is the rest energy of a particle, which could be gotten if you could convert matter into light). Well depending on your definition of life, life can live off of non life. A plant eats air(CO2), water, sunlight, fixed nitrogen in the soil, and a few minerals from the soil. Oh, and what is your definition of life?
"I think the point you also made contradicted itself, the world or the universe did not just happened a mathematical or scientific law"
You obviously have a need to believe in a deity, which is fine. I just don't have that need. I did at one time though. Even if a deity in some part were responsible for the universe we find ourselves in, the universe would have to evolve according to scientific(mathematical) principles. The universe just didn't go poof and everything just be all ordered like it is. Many creationists believe basically in the poof theory, when reality seems to indicate otherwise. If a God or deity or higher power or such does exist then they have gone to great lengths to not only not intervene with its creation, but also to give us everything necessary to figure out things on our own via reason, imagination, and the 5 senses and maybe some other faculties. I guess some people are still afraid of death and the what ifs for what may happen after you die.
"it is like foolish educated scientist that claims a comet sped out in space without a cause. Like walking into a computer room and say that 'them computers accidentally appeared and even though they all run by electricity it is still an accident. This accounts to the mathematical and scientific behavior of the universe. Your brain needs help if you thought your argument was arbitrary."
You don't seem to know anything about science or the scientific establishment. Science people believe in causes. Some believe in a deity, some don't. I'm not sure what your obsession with accidents comes from. Not sure what you mean by the brain comment except just to be mean. You seem a bit frustrated. I have no problem with admitting there is much I don't know. Since I don't have knowledge of deities, I can't say they exist or don't exist for that matter. For me I have reached the limits of both established religions and philosophies and am trying to go deeper into the unknown and make sense of what I have seen. For me, there is more truth in saying you don't know than saying you know something to be true when you have no proof of such.
Also as a comment that is related to this whole discussion, on the topic of evolution. I don't think evolution is yet a complete theory. It has many holes or unexplained things left in it. I'm a hard science kind of guy and a complete hard science for it hasn't been really created yet. For one Darwin didn't have access to the genetic discoveries we now have. I think people are still adapting their mindset to the realities of genetics. But on the otherhand, evolution is a more satisfactory theory than just saying the universe went poof and all species on earth came into existence. To me to believe in that is just a tendency of the mind to be lazy and give up and choose an easy explanation, even if it isn't the correct one. If a deity does exist then they wouldn't have a problem with evolution for they are the one to have set it into motion. It is only the untrained mind that has a problem with evolution.
i never get frustrated but i do tend to spit back if anyone tries to disrespect me other than just staying on the discussion, well said on your post we chose to believe in a deity or not regardless whether we fear death or not. My reason for believing in deity is the cause of all reasons and i fear no death, no bad lack and nobody. Everything is but the mind and this is why our thoughts manifest in certain ways
Nucleic acids that can self assemble without enzymes?
Then the building blocks of life would be a step BACKWARDS because it requires enzymes.
Wrong....enzymes are not a requirement for any chemical reaction. Given enough time, all chemical reactions will occur. The problem is is that may chemical reactions would not happen by themselves at a rate that is required for a fully functioning organism. This is where enzymes come in. Enzymes, by definition, INCREASE the rate of those chemical reactions. In the case of biological systems, enzymes increase the rate of these chemical reaction to make life possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c'est la vie
If you have a self assembling system, and you introduce a requirement for enzymes , you bring it to a screeching halt unless you're simply going to assume that the correct enzymes all providentially show up at the right time, in the right amounts.
Again, you don't take into account rate kinetics of these reaction. Such reactions might not have occurred quickly without enzymes, but they do occur. Enzymes simply make the reaction occur more quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c'est la vie
Your attempt to bridge between these and the molecules that actually do support life on earth is crumbling into the canyon below.
[quote=c'est la vie;9565190]
Its more evidence than the creationists have that supernatural being created everything in 6 days then took a breather on the 7th. just sayin...
Quote:
Originally Posted by c'est la vie
And ya gotta love the terminology -- We've produced "pre-life".
I think that was the idea of the experiment...no one expected a single cell organism to pop out of the primordial ooze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c'est la vie
Assuming something will happen that has not been shown to have ever happened is not scientific.
You obviously have little idea how science works. Every advance in physics, medicine, computers, etc. was the culmination of many, many small experiments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c'est la vie
Maybe these guys are speaking as prophets or priests, but they're not speaking as scientists.
It is not our job to convert anyone. If you have sufficient curiosity, you will read, and study and come to your own opinions. An atheist will not ask you to believe as he does, he will ask that you put thought into your beliefs, and do your own research.
An extremely good point. The religious constantly try to make others believe as they do. The atheist just doesn't care what others believe.
......only that at least in the physical reality no higher entity than humankind exists.......
'We've found no natural evidence of the supernatural'
lol
Nice try at backpedalling there.
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