Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad
What I think is important is that we always remember that Jesus came back as the same 'person" he was before he died.
He loved us.
He wanted us to believe that he had risen from the dead.
He showed the 11 his hands and his feet, he told them to handle him, to put their fingers in the nail holes and sword cuts on his body so that they would understand "He was real"....a real person.
The Problem with the "Do not touch me" understanding is that some bible student build on that wrong idea and come up with all kinds of reasons to support it.
Soon they got all these "levels" of being raised from the dead...with all kinds of new rules.
I listen to that kind of error and think to myself that such teachings are:, "Way, way too hard to remember!"
The better understanding of the verse is to just go with the more natural understanding, in that Mary hugged Jesus.
Real hard....
Real, real hard...
Mary hugged Jesus the same way any of us would rush to and hug someone who had been thought to have died, but now was fine.
This better understanding of the verse and its context allows us to return to the idea that Jesus was normal...(Yes, he was in a body that had been raised back to life with a changed nature, but still it was good old Jesus standing there)
No need to invent new rules, or levels to add to the resurrection...
Way more simple to remember...LOL
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Thanks for this. Posting what I put together.
Ok. let's look at Jesus' resurrection, and what Jesus is supposed to have said about it.
Friday. crucifixion.
Luke says that, on the cross, Jesus tells one of the 'robbers' that he will be with him in paradise, not the next day, or even that night, but
that day. If that doesn't mean that Jesus was predicting that he would go straight to paradise, taking his new pal with him as soon as they were dead, I don't know what it means.
You can I suppose, regard paradise as a sort of holding pen while God decides whether the robber qualifies for a new incorruptible body and Jesus is just there temporarily with his wounds.
Saturday, Sabbath. Is Jesus still in his tomb? According to Luke he should be gone. Matthew says that a guard arrived to make sure that no-one stole the body. Surely they'd check to make sure it hadn't gone the previous night? If so, he hasn't gone to Paradise yet.
Paradeisos
- among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
- a garden, pleasure ground grove, park
- the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
- the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
- heaven (Strong's concordances.Interlinear Bible)
It seems remarkable to me that only Paul (
2Co 12:4), talking about this personal vision and Luke even mention this paradise. Perhaps it corresponds with some Aramaic term.
Sunday early morning, the women approach the tomb and see it open and are told Jesus is gone, according to Mark.
Matthew says it was closed but there was an angel who rolled away the stone for them. They don't actually go inside but they run away and run slap bang into Jesus They clasp his feet. Jesus tells them to go and tell the 'brothers' to go to Galilee where they will see him.
According to Luke, they return to tell the 'eleven' about it and are not believed. No mention of Jesus appearing to them. Indeed, Luke says that Cleophas and another depart for Emmaus and, when
they run into Jesus, Cleophas says specifically that the women found the tomb open and failed to find the body but they didn't see Jesus.
Oddly no mention of the two men who said Jesus said that he would rise on the third day. But Luke did say the women were not believed.
Meanwhile, back at the cabin, after the women had reported, Peter and 'the disciple that Jesus loved', believing the report or not, run to the tomb and find the wrappings. Apparently this convinces the 'other' of the resurrection. Peter, we don't know about.
They go 'home' but Mary (Magdala 20.18) stays and the men (it says angels but she talks to them as though they are men) appear and then Jesus shows up and tells her not to touch him or, as you read it, not to cling as he's going to be around for a while.
It's hard not to link this with the appearance to the Marys about a half - hour previous (Matthew) where they clung to his feet, but overall John and Luke do seem to contradict Matthew, who implies that the disciples as per instructions depart for Galilee.
Unless we dismiss Matthew's account, that must be later as they are still there that evening when Cleophas and the other retun and are greeted with the news that the 'Lord'' had risen and had apeared to Simon. When did that happen? Not one of the gospels describe the event and only Luke mentions it.
Cleophas says that he saw Jesus at Emmaeus and perhaps that gives rise to the doubts that Jesus chides them for when he appears. He invites the eleven to touch him and indicates his hands and feet - presumably the wounds. Not the side, oddly. But then, Luke doesn't mention the spear - thrust.
John does when he describes what must be the same appearance to the 'eleven' (Luke 24.33) that evening. To convince them, Jesus has a bite to eat.
So far, your reading would fit and it is clear that Jesus has the holes in him. And wherever 'Paradise' was it wasn't yet ascencion to the 'father', if that would mean a new body.
lt's actually the ten disciples, of course, as Thomas isn't there. When he comes back, he doesn't believe it. Wherever Jesus is, it isn't with the disciples as it is a week later (not long enough to have the Disciples travel to Galilee and prostrate themselves before Jesus) but a week later Jesus strolls in through the locked door (still with the Old, fish - eating, body, mind) and shows his appendix scars to Thomas who is convinced (remarkably, for a Jew) that Jesus is God.
Luke then says that Jesus led them out to Bethany and he 'parted from them' and the Disciples spent their time in the temple, praising God.
Now, we can suppose, The disciples leave for Galilee to see Jesus, as though they hadn't already seen him enough already. While they are there, Peter and the sons of zebedee, go back to fishing. Jesus appears to them on the shore and arranges a miraculous haul of fish (which I suspect Luke moves to the 'calling of disciples, for in
his version the disciples stay in Jerusalem) and he has another meal with them, which I suppose must imply that he
still hasn't ascended and got his new body.
Jesus has a chat with them and predicts Peter's death. And presumably he tells them to go and join the other disciples who, presumably, are all assembled at 'the mountain' (according to Matthew) waiting for Jesus to appear so they can prostrate themselves. Really, could we now agree that Matthew's account should be binned?
Going on with Acts, Jesus appeared to the eleven over 40 days and ate with them. Then, commanding them to remain in Jerusalem, he finally did ascend and two 'angels' confirm this time, it's heaven.
So if I were a believer, I'd suppose the answer is that there is a paradise where people wait for a new body and that's where Jesus was in between apparitions, and your suggestion that Jesus assured Mary that He's be around for a while stands up. I don't read it that way myself, but I agree your view works. You will probably gather than my disbelief is based less on details of that kind and more on comparitive details that make it hard to reconcile the various accounts.
What is this 'Paradise'? The Gospels don't make it clear. It's odd that, in all the talks with the disciples, both before and after crucifixion, Jesus is so vague about what was actually in store. I have to see it as speculations of believers rather than information by an authority.
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Sorry, but that looks like what I call REALLY rewriting the Bible.
