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1. Why does faith have to be "an outside force" external to God? Whatever 'tools' and delegated authority He used to do it, it is my belief that it was God who created/organized this planet and the lights we see in the sky. He also created/organized the spirit bodies that inhabit the physical tabernacles humans create, that's why He is our Heavenly Father.
OK...so you admit that is your opinion and we'll leave it at that. I'm just telling you there is no evidence for your opinion as far as I can tell. I was pointing out how your last statement of faith being a power for God to create worlds was failed logic.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
2. For atheists there is no "evidence" that God lives because they limit themselves to the five senses. Those five senses, in my opinion, were given us to gather information about our physical environment. We were given other faculties with which to know God and things of the spirit.
Funny, my other faculties (whatever they may be) have not told me that a God exists. Are my faculties broken or might I be mentally retarded? Say for the sake of argument that God exists and he created me, then he for some reason created me without the faculties to detect him? If so, how come it falls on me, that it is my choice not to believe in his existence?
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Originally Posted by justamere10
3. Those who believe in God tend to use the word "prophesy" more frequently than "predict" but whatever, it is an act of faith to believe in things that are as yet undetected. If a scientist didn't have more faith that a certain hypothesis was more correct than another he/she wouldn't start trying to prove that one correct before working on the other if the first one fails to produce. Just words, and choices. In the minds of probably most westerners who believe in God, Science and Religion are both helpful, I for one certainly think so.
As Arequipa mentioned, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific process. A hypothesis is by definition nothing more than an educated guess based on the available observations/information at hand. It doesn't take faith to form a hypothesis, it is simply for a way for a scientist to structure a set of experiments.
FYI...you are confused again... prophesies are made based on tea leaves and chicken guts. Predictions are made on observation, facts, and data. Big difference.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
4. Gotta move on to other things my five senses are calling me to, see comments in 3.
If you say so. Unfortunately our senses, as wonderful as they are can be misinterpreted.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
5. I guess I'm among the exceptions then. I do respect your choice to not believe in God, that's entirely up to you. But most people believe in God. Fortunately (from my point of view because I know He exists) it's human nature to do so...
I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, despite what I see from religious folks day in/out.
So are you saying that you believe in God because most other people do? Would you jump off a bridge if everyone else was doing it? I hope you have a better reason for believing in God than that.
2. For atheists there is no "evidence" that God lives because they limit themselves to the five senses. Those five senses, in my opinion, were given us to gather information about our physical environment. We were given other faculties with which to know God and things of the spirit.
This isn't true. Many have tried your faith-based approach to finding god and have come up empty. Maybe they're lying, missing something, doing it wrong - but then again, maybe you are. Since there's no way to test personal revelation from god, we'll just never know. This goes back to the whole idea that faith based approaches to "knowledge" don't seem to produce good results.
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3. Those who believe in God tend to use the word "prophesy" more frequently than "predict" but whatever, it is an act of faith to believe in things that are as yet undetected.
Faith in a prediction based on observable evidence and patterns is far different from faith in something despite the lack of evidence or even evidence against it. Stop trying to equate the two.
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But most people believe in God.
And the vast majority of them feel that your concept of God is terribly mistaken. Are you going to convert because of that?
Again, you show your lack of understanding of how science works. It is not a question of which possible theory looks statistically more likely. It is a question of testing theories to devise ways of showing which is the correct one, and if you can't do that it remains only a theory (in the sense of hypothesis).
This is imagination and the evidence is that imagination comes up with irreconcilable imaginings. Prefence - selecting this one or that on without a sliver of supportive evidence is mere self - delusion. It is pathetic and slightly disgusting that you seem to regard that as some higher faculty than those which, we can convincingly show, collates empirically verifiable data.
Until you understand that what does not have some reasonably convincing supportive evidence can only be regarded as a possibility, you will never understand why religious faith and science can never be put on the same level or reliability.
Your beliefs are worth precisely nothing....
I make no claim to know "how science works" to the level that you possibly do. For me, seeing the results of science, engineering, and technology in producing planes, trains and other wondrous rides etc. to lessen the limits on my physical body is good enough. I'M ALL FOR SCIENCE! And I think I've made that known before, so why criticize me as if I am anti-science? I'm not!
But I do claim to know a bit about the ways one can get in touch with God and things of a spiritual nature. Those ways include such tools as meditation, fasting, humble and sincere prayer, studying and pondering writings such as the Holy Bible, listening to beautiful uplifting music, etc.
Many scientists do those things, many scientists believe in God. In my opinion some atheists rely far too much on "science" to somehow 'justify' their choice to not believe in God. Who knows, perhaps some day some scientist will have a video camera rolling when an angel appears, or some other "unproven by the scientific method" spiritual experience happens. Then all it will take is another scientist to replicate that experience and voila, angels, life after death, and probably even God suddenly exist!
It's not imagination when people in broad daylight see beings shining with a glorious unearthly light standing in the air, and those beings speak with them, call them by name, sometimes shake hands with them, tell them of things to come, identify themselves as historical figures who lived their mortal lives in the past; and sometimes other witnesses see that happening at the same time! It's not imagination when you humbly and sincerely ask of God and you receive a real world answer to the problem you are seeking divine guidance for, and that accompanied by a indescribable feeling of love and peace that fills every part of your being!
God is willing and anxious to speak with His children on earth. He knows the trials and tests they are undergoing during their mortal experience. He knows the confusion that comes when tempting opposites are presented and choices must be made. There must be an opposition in all things or we would not have choices, choices that move us towards righteousness and godliness, or choices that move us further away from our Heavenly Parent.
It is possible to learn where we came from before our birth on this planet, why we are here enduring mortality, and where we are going after the death of the physical body. But we won't learn those things by rejecting the spiritual part of our dual nature.
I maintain that both Science and Religion have their place, I'm not opposed to either...
Ok before anything, you've based your entire response on your own views which are exclusively Christian. This means that this isn't a science vs religion discussion but a Christianity vs everything else one.
Where do other faiths come in to play with your idea of personal revelation? What is your view on polytheists like the Hindu religion or spiritual atheists like the Buddhists? Why haven't other religions been considered so far?
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Originally Posted by justamere10
1. Apparently there are thousands of Christian denominations. It's probable that many of those denominations are founded on someone's or a group of scholars' interpretation of or emphasis on specific verses found in one or more of the books of the bible.
Anyone can start a church, at least in the USA, and call themselves, "pastor" "minister" "priest" "bishop" etc. so there's little wonder that there are many different names on many different church buildings.
But they probably all believe in God!
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the original Church of Jesus Christ has been restored as prophesied in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, once again on a foundation of revelation and living apostles and prophets, as it was anciently. The way I see it, that sets them apart!
Key being the way you see it. It is subjective. Personal revelation and experiences are full of different and conflicting stories because they are simply constructs or rationalizations of the brain.
I mean it becomes ridiculous when you take into account the fact that since Christianity has been around there has been conflict and even bloodshed within the sects. Someone goes against the dogmatic beliefs(Martin Luther, Copernicus, Galileo...) and they are met with retribution from authority.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
4. I think most churches have programs that evolve frequently to meet the needs of their members in an ever-changing environment. People who believe in continuing revelation from God do have ongoing guidance for our time. But truth is truth, God's commandment to not commit adultery or fornication for example has not been rescinded by Him even though it seems a popular thing to do right now. So yes, that teaching could be called "dogmatic".
All churches have evolved in some way or other over time; otherwise they wouldn't have any followers, no religion and no god. The church has become a business with church attendants as currency and every possible tactic to keep them there has been employed at some point or another.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
5. If you are waiting for "reason" to lead you to God, you may have a long wait. Spirituality and belief in God does not rely on "reason" (the intellect) to make itself manifest to us. In addition to reason (the faculty we use to crunch data, compare it with known data within our experience or learning and reach conclusions) human beings have other faculties and means of discovery that lead us to God and subsequent membership in churches with like-minded members.
Personal experiences are "reasons" justamere. You are talking nonsense to try to hide the fact that the system is simply unreliable.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
6. I repeat, the scientific method is THE WRONG TOOL to apply if you are seeking to discover God. It's quite possible that science will never discover God even though He has been known to appear to man, and Jesus Christ and ministering angels often do. The five senses and empirical methods of discovery are simply not adequate for such a search, they fail to find or at least to acknowledge (except perhaps at the water cooler where groups of scientists gather) things beyond their own limitations.
If no other method of discovery tells you there is a god apart from the one that consists of making stuff up or believing without questioning then it's because in all likelihood there is no god or at least not the one you describe.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
7. I would consider it more possible that there is no sun in the sky than that there is no God. I KNOW that God lives based on my own personal experience during this lifetime.
So you called me close minded knowing that you wont even accept other views? At least I acknowledge that there is a small possibility that some form of god or god(s) may exist.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
But I acknowledge that some people choose to limit themselves to the physical world that the five senses open up to them. That's ok, God gives us all the freedom to CHOOSE...
Could you be any more condescending? The only choice here is to be willfully blind, deaf and mute to the obvious truth that there is nothing to find. You really shouldn't fear it.
When I discovered that the voice in my head, that the priests taught me was god, was actually my own inner voice. I was disappointed but eventually got over it. It's time for more people to do the same.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
You may not like my posts coos, but that's how I see it.
I'm telling you the exact reasons as to why I believe your words are bogus and it would make me happy to be told the reasons as to why I'm wrong instead of degrading to simple assertions or condescending statements.
It may surprise you to know that many Mormons actually believe in evolution within species, including probably most of the I suppose thousands or even tens of thousands of scientists who happen to be members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
There was no game in play. Science has its place and Religion has its place, both useful to human beings during our mortal experience, with the latter continuing on after death.
Well, more than expressing an opinion, I showed the fallacious, and perhaps intentionally deceptive, logic put forth by your quotation.
Whether or not mormons believe in evolution within a species is largely irrelevant, other than to showcase their ignorance of the world. If one chooses to ignore the facts of evolution, you can generally continue on with your life just fine. It does not mean that you are well informed, simply that you are ignoring reality.
....When I discovered that the voice in my head, that the priests taught me was god, was actually my own inner voice. I was disappointed but.
Your room at this very moment is filled with radio and television signals. Your five senses cannot detect them, to you they are invisible. But if you have a 'black box' called a "receiver" in your room that box can detect the undetectable and transform those external signals into data that some of your physical senses are capable of detecting/bringing into awareness.
Is it remotely possible do you think that your brain may be functioning similar to that receiver? Is it possible that your brain is detecting invisible external signals and transforming them into data (your "inner voice" perhaps) that your physical senses are or your consciousness is otherwise capable of detecting?
Is it possible that those possibly external signals could be coming from spiritual sources such as er hmm, perhaps God?
Maybe those "priests" were right, and your "inner voice" is actually feeding you detectable signals from God...
(But don't get too carried away with the above, it's meant to be just an analogy, not a literal description of how I think our connection with God and with each other works.)
Justamere why did you ignore most of my post? Why wont you answer my questions? Specifically:
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Where do other faiths come in to play with your idea of personal revelation? What is your view on polytheists like the Hindu religion or spiritual atheists like the Buddhists? Why haven't other religions been considered so far?
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Originally Posted by justamere10
Your room at this very moment is filled with radio and television signals. Your five senses cannot detect them, to you they are invisible. But if you have a 'black box' called a "receiver" in your room that box can detect the undetectable and transform those external signals into data that some of your physical senses are capable of detecting/bringing into awareness.
Is it remotely possible do you think that your brain may be functioning similar to that receiver? Is it possible that your brain is detecting invisible external signals and transforming them into data (your "inner voice" perhaps) that your physical senses are or your consciousness is otherwise capable of detecting?
Is it possible that those possibly external signals could be coming from spiritual sources such as er hmm, perhaps God?
Maybe those "priests" were right, and your "inner voice" is actually feeding you detectable signals from God...
(But don't get too carried away with the above, it's meant to be just an analogy, not a literal description of how I think our connection with God and with each other works.)
Unless of course the message doesn't agree with their own agenda in which case the people hearing voices must be crazy or working for the devil.
Is this why you don't want to answer my post? You seem to believe that everyone who hears voices have the same message but this is not true.
And these two must be god having a laugh with people's lives:
God told me to kill boys, says mother - Americas, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/god-told-me-to-kill-boys-says-mother-558706.html - broken link)
Justamere why did you ignore most of my post? Why wont you answer my questions? Specifically:
Unless of course the message doesn't agree with their own agenda in which case the people hearing voices must be crazy or working for the devil.
Is this why you don't want to answer my post? You seem to believe that everyone who hears voices have the same message but this is not true.
It is my hope that more people will participate in this thread rather than it just being me who responds to everything. So I sometimes back away for a while hoping that will happen. Sometimes I consider a post just the expression of opinions, fair enough, no reply needed. And sometimes I simply don't have the time available or am traveling, which I do a lot of. Also, I find some of the posts to be rude and disrespectful, and thus in my opinion undeserving of a reply. And many of them to be more lengthy than I am prepared to spend the time to dig into.
Hope that helps...
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Quote from your post: "Where do other faiths come in to play with your idea of personal revelation? What is your view on polytheists like the Hindu religion or spiritual atheists like the Buddhists? Why haven't other religions been considered so far?"
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I consider every human being to be a son or daughter of the same Heavenly Parent. He assures us in the Bible that He loves each of us equally and is no respecter of persons. There are many different languages and many different cultures on earth. If we are willing to seek revelation and humble ourselves before Him, God speaks to each of us individually in a language and format that we are capable of understanding.
Keep in mind that from His point of view we are just infants. Perhaps some day we'll look back on how prideful and puffed up we were on earth, thinking we knew it all or perhaps others we knew had all the tools and brain power needed to prove that God doesn't exist, and would be doing that any moment now...
(And meanwhile, we couldn't even take the next breath without His approval. Life is short, just a flicker. Life is meant to be a time to make choices, a time to prepare, a time to equip ourselves for our inevitable all by ourselves encounter with Forever.)
I thought the discussion was about the role of faith, life after death, and as the thread evolved, whether or not to believe in God, not a comparison of different religious beliefs.
God communicates with His children on earth in many different ways. One of the most common is called by Christians "the still small voice."
But however He makes Himself manifest, there is a huge difference between losing touch with consensus reality as happens with psychosis, and feeling God's Holy Spirit infuse you with new knowledge while affirming at the same time that He's still there, and He still loves you!
Last edited by justamere10; 08-28-2009 at 06:42 AM..
Everyone, atheist and beliver alike, rely on faith. It just depends on what you put your faith in. I mean you can be a firm atheist and if so this would typically mean you've put your "faith" in those whose opinions you're read/head against the existance of "god" and sound reasonable to you.
You can have the most cynical and scientific mind on Earth....and yet if you don't "assume" (which is faith really) you'll never get anywhere with your thinking. You would have to have "faith" that the previous scientific minds you're basing your "belief" on did truly use objective methods to "prove" their findings.
I could be wrong here....but it seems to me that recently some scientists were questioning a few of Einstein's findings about things ????
The point is to keep an open mind and be willing to change your "faith" as need be when new findings come out.
My beef if you will with some believers is that they have blind faith. They will not even entertain any other explanation and dismiss everything that would even remotely contradict their view of how things are. I'd be hard pressed to say blind faith would ever be a good thing.
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