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Until you understand that Paul was talking about the Law of Moses, the Jewish law, the Torah, you will never understand what the NT is really about.
I agree! I am not sure of what point you are making. The Law is required for the the Law of Grace. As I said, Jesus said "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it."
I think that those under the law of Grace do not have to follow the law. But those who are under the law of grace and love the Lord will tend to follow the law. For the law is the commandments of God and Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Jesus is God and those that love him will want to follow all of his laws. Some cannot be repeated like the sacrifices because these just represented what Jesus was going to do on the Cross. He has accomplished the cross so the sacrifice is obsolete. Futher it says that 3: "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations." (Isaiah 66) So now the things that were once pure have become unpure. To make these sacrifices would be like spitting upon the blood of Jesus.
Because we give God the first fruits. Sunday is the first of the week, Saturday is the last.
Except thats not what the 10 commandments says. But for Constatine, you would still be keeping the Sabath holy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk
We are in the new covenant, not the old.
Is that true all the time, or only when its convenient for you?
For example, if I searched your post would I find you quoting old testiment law on subjects like Gay marriage? Or were you quick to point out that any reference to the Old Covenant was now obsolete, since it is no longer authoritative?
And if there were a question about the 10 commandments on the Courthouse lawn or in a school, do you point out that, in fact, the 10 commandments are now obsolete, and have been abrogated?
Do you explicitly reject the 10 commandments as "Old Covenant" have any application in the "new covenant" times?
k it's maybe not that helpful in a mixed discussion.
I think from an atheist perspective it just tends to sound like "because God said so" and sounds arbitrary. However it's not really arbitrary. It's based on God's perfection, knowledge, understanding of humanity, etc. I believe Catholic teaching is that most morality can be gleaned by reason, knowledge, understanding humanity, etc.
The existence of religions without any contact with Christianity having several similar values would seem to support that. They obtained those through reason, logic, and or experience. It's not simply arbitrary.
The precepts that are truly universal, though, are very few. Murder? Well, no, that's pretty subjective and the definition of what's murder vs what's justifiable or even societally approved varies. Sex outside marriage-- even the definition of marriage-- varies. Coveting? Again, pretty subjective in a communal society like many in pre-Christian AFrica or Oceania. And of course that "no other Gods before me" thing is shot all to hell in a society with cp,[letely different Gods.
In general I'd agree with whomever defined sin as that which transgresses against (one's) God(s)-- parenthetical qualifiers mine. Which makes it an irrelevant concept for those who don't have any, and explains the difference in definition of sin for those who don't follow the Abrahamic concept. Of course, that means those Christians who are minded to can't scream that those folks are sinning, but I suspect they'll manage anyway.
Originally Posted by Gplex You mean the law that tells me to stone disobedient children?
Not innocent babies like an abortion, or small children, but rather full grown Children who don't work and a sluggards and alcholic drunks.
So...what, we're expected to go to the Welfare office and stone the applicants to death? What about rehabs? Can we only stone them before they get through admissions?
Your convaluted justification of something which was pretty straightforward is astounding.
I agree! I am not sure of what point you are making.
The point was your comment that Paul was being all things to the gentiles and that somehow Sin wasn't anything to do with the Law...damb..I think I forgot what we were talking about..I'll check....
I think it came out of this post about the idea of decriminalising Sin by making it not sinful:
"Originally Posted by Rafius
So those of us that don't believe in gods can't sin...Simple!
I said: "That's the way Paul did it. Since Gentile God -believers were 'sinning' by not observing the law, make the law obsolete."
In response to
"Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
That's the way Paul did it. Since Gentile God -believers were 'sinning' by not observing the law, make the law obsolete.
Unfortunately, that went wrong right away. Paul's supposition that anyone who had Faith in Lord Jesus would automatically become perfect was soon found by him not to work.
He spent Galatians, Colossians and Thessalonians exhorting, begging and damning the eyes of those who let him down by not being as perfect as he expected. And of course, we ended up with a load of rules which are impossible to observe or at least impractical, and no - one seems to be able to agree what they are."
You posted;
Originally Posted by Nikk
"The law of grace overrides the old law. The old law is still in effect, so a person who abuses the law of grace, falls out of grace and then is condemned by the law itself. Jesus said, I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The law of grace fulfills the law through Christ."
So I see what happened. You got off the subject.
Which subject was about Sin. Sin as imposed on Adam and enhanced by the Mosaic law. That's what Paul talks about. It isn't 'abusing the law of grace'. That is not what Paul is talking about. It's true that he sees the (replacement) 'law of grace' not working very well but that's another matter.
We lost track because your response was really just preaching and nothing to do with the matter under discussion and still isn't. This is the problem with Christian apologists who can't keep to the subject but just seize on any old keyword and use it as a pretext for a preach. One completely forgets what we were talking about.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-17-2009 at 06:07 AM..
Not universally. The first day of the week is considered to be Monday in several European countries.
I certainly think of Monday as the first day of the week and Sunday the last. I always have. Since I have always been an atheist, that must be the 'natural' feeling and therefore 'God - given'. So any other arrangement must be 'from men' and not from God and therefore sinful. Ok so far Nikk?
Except thats not what the 10 commandments says. But for Constatine, you would still be keeping the Sabath holy.
Is that true all the time, or only when its convenient for you?
For example, if I searched your post would I find you quoting old testiment law on subjects like Gay marriage? Or were you quick to point out that any reference to the Old Covenant was now obsolete, since it is no longer authoritative?
And if there were a question about the 10 commandments on the Courthouse lawn or in a school, do you point out that, in fact, the 10 commandments are now obsolete, and have been abrogated?
Do you explicitly reject the 10 commandments as "Old Covenant" have any application in the "new covenant" times?
You are not listening. There is nothing wrong with the OT, it is the law and it is still viable. That is what condemns us if we reject Christ. The law of grace overrides the law. So the OT is required because it shows us the truth. We are convicted by the OT. When the OT says "do not steal", I know stealing is wrong. I can then be convicted of my sin. However, the answer is in Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world.
What is wrong with Constantine? Nothing. He made Christianity popular. And as I have said it does not matter which day of the week we rest on so long as we rest on one day. Saturday, Sunday, Monday... is meaningless. I just gave you the answer as to why we are OK with Sunday, but that is a minor issue. No reason to split a church over!
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