Let's see proof of creation (Holy Ghost, doctrine, children, scriptures)
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I was going to stay out of this discussion . . . but I cannot count the times I have heard this very complaint from frustrated atheists/agnostics. The problem lies in thinking that belief is the desired objective instead of one of the motivators to achieve the desired objective. We want our children to believe in us and that we love them and have their best interests at heart . . . so they will listen to us and learn the self-control and judgment to be responsible adults. It is no different for us as spiritual children. The goal is NOT the belief . . . it is the self-control and judgment to be responsible spiritual adults. Our children have to become self-reliant . . . not obedient robots. So do we.
If it were absolutely unambiguous and irrefutable that God exists and wants X,Y,Z. etc. . . . we would simply obey and not develop our own motivations and judgment. We would not have to figure things out for ourselves and come to the right decisions on our own . . . we would not be self-reliant . . . and would remain robot obeyers. IF that were what God wanted . . . we would already have been made that way . . .without all this free will, confusion and nonsense. God wants self-directed mature adults being responsible because that is what WE want to be.
If that were so, then why are so many of the religious robotic parrots?
If that were so, then why are so many of the religious robotic parrots?
Because they have been misled, deceived, lied to and coerced by misguided men using the veil of ignorance that covers the written scriptures to promote power and control. Coercion is the primary indicator of evil intent. You cannot coerce love . . . and love is what God is and what God wants, period.
Because they have been misled, deceived, lied to and coerced by misguided men using the veil of ignorance that covers the written scriptures to promote power and control. Coercion is the primary indicator of evil intent. You cannot coerce love . . . and love is what God is and what God wants, period.
Sounds like a contradiction to me. If the bible was inerrant, it would be clear as daylight not mud for all to understand and comprehend. Alas, folk then will follow some dude with a doctorate in theology and believe in his interpretation of scripture leading us to calvinists, armenianists, preterists, futurists, universalists... amongst many who all derive their interpretation from the same book.
The RCC folk argue this is because of Sola Scriptura which is a no no and is supposed to be understood with oral traditions too. When any church reduces it's beliefs into an article of faith aka creed, then they are coercing the people to believe as they believe.
Religion plays off the fear of people just like USA politics does. People are inherently lazy when it comes to studying the bible and hence will generally go with the flow so there you have your robotz.
Why in all this time has the text of John 1 not been changed to state, "in the beginning was Jesus.." instead of "the word"? Why does one need to go though mental gymnastics to make sense of what is written?
If the bible is the "owners manual" as inferred by many, no wonder there are so many "train wrecks" out there?
If the bible was the word of god, there would be no need for apologetics now would there?
All it boils down to is men interpreting what other men wrote. All gifts of the holy spook as practiced in churches can be learned and in essence boils down to peer pressure or mass hysteria or both.
Sounds like a contradiction to me. If the bible was inerrant, it would be clear as daylight not mud for all to understand and comprehend. Alas, folk then will follow some dude with a doctorate in theology and believe in his interpretation of scripture leading us to calvinists, armenianists, preterists, futurists, universalists... amongst many who all derive their interpretation from the same book.
Sorry . . . don't see the contradiction. The bible is not inerrant . . . just God inspired and not dictated. Following any dude is not our task either. Learning what is the right way to be . . . on our own . . . responding to our feeling that it is right in our hearts out of "love of God and each other" . . .IS.
I was going to stay out of this discussion . . . but I cannot count the times I have heard this very complaint from frustrated atheists/agnostics. The problem lies in thinking that belief is the desired objective instead of one of the motivators to achieve the desired objective. We want our children to believe in us and that we love them and have their best interests at heart . . . so they will listen to us and learn the self-control and judgment to be responsible adults. It is no different for us as spiritual children. The goal is NOT the belief . . . it is the self-control and judgment to be responsible spiritual adults. Our children have to become self-reliant . . . not obedient robots. So do we.
If it were absolutely unambiguous and irrefutable that God exists and wants X,Y,Z. etc. . . . we would simply obey and not develop our own motivations and judgment. We would not have to figure things out for ourselves and come to the right decisions on our own . . . we would not be self-reliant . . . and would remain robot obeyers. IF that were what God wanted . . . we would already have been made that way . . .without all this free will, confusion and nonsense. God wants self-directed mature adults being responsible because that is what WE want to be.
You labor under the misconception that deity is required for a person to develope into a moral, self reliant person.
You labor under the misconception that deity is required for a person to develope into a moral, self reliant person.
On the contrary . . . I just explained the reason why there is no certainty from God . . . it would completely defeat the purpose as stated in my post. Actually . . . if we develop the desired maturity, love and attitudes without belief . . . God would have no problem with that. IT is men and human emotions and desires that have corrupted the inspiration into human descriptions of God with negative human emotions . . like wrath, jealousy, . . . and other human ego-driven concerns. God has none of them.
Sorry . . . don't see the contradiction. The bible is not inerrant . . . just God inspired and not dictated. Following any dude is not our task either. Learning what is the right way to be . . . on our own . . . responding to our feeling that it is right in our hearts out of "love of God and each other" . . .IS.
The trouble is, you seem to think it simply cannot be done "properly" absent a philosophical component, or, perhaps, a faithful belief in some sort of structureless God.
I feel quite happy without any of what I see as The VooDoo component. Am I therefore, in your eyes, a pitiable and lesser soul for prefering a more empirical life and truths?
The trouble is, you seem to think it simply cannot be done "properly" absent a philosophical component, or, perhaps, a faithful belief in some sort of structureless God.
Perhaps you missed my earlier post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi
You labor under the misconception that deity is required for a person to develope into a moral, self reliant person.
On the contrary . . . I just explained the reason why there is no certainty from God . . . it would completely defeat the purpose as stated in my post. Actually . . . if we develop the desired maturity, love and attitudes without belief . . . God would have no problem with that. IT is men and human emotions and desires that have corrupted the inspiration into human descriptions of God with negative human emotions . . like wrath, jealousy, . . . and other human ego-driven concerns. God has none of them.
Quote:
I feel quite happy without any of what I see as The VooDoo component. Am I therefore, in your eyes, a pitiable and lesser soul for prefering a more empirical life and truths?
Of course not . . . your preference for an indifferent and random creator doesn't alter the reality at all. I understand completely . . . I spent 18+ years with the same preference. I have the benefit of personal experience that you do not have. Absent that . . . I would still be as you are.
Sorry . . . don't see the contradiction. The bible is not inerrant . . . just God inspired and not dictated. Following any dude is not our task either. Learning what is the right way to be . . . on our own . . . responding to our feeling that it is right in our hearts out of "love of God and each other" . . .IS.
Insaneindamembrane said it best.
It is a coping mechanism.
I would expand on that in that many folk are dealt what they perceive a crappy hand in life. Religion/god helps them cope and the same thing they turn to keeps them enslaved in that same crappy mindset and the leaders of religion know this lil' fact and exploit it to their own benefit.
You may have a more palatable philosophical outlook but unfortunately, xians in general do not. Wanting to be associated with that crowd, you own all the "wrong" interpretations too.
You say, god inspired as opposed to inerrant, that friend is merely semantics or synonyms of each other.
It amazes me that when science makes a mistake, the theists are all over it and say there see yet science will correct its mistakes but the inverse is true for the bible. With all its errors they leave it as is and refer to extra biblical materials to explain away the errors.
The most interesting aspect of all this is that in so many pages, no one has offered any proof of creationism but all we have had hare are a few that had a "preach attack".
On the contrary . . . I just explained the reason why there is no certainty from God . . . it would completely defeat the purpose as stated in my post. Actually . . . if we develop the desired maturity, love and attitudes without belief . . . God would have no problem with that. IT is men and human emotions and desires that have corrupted the inspiration into human descriptions of God with negative human emotions . . like wrath, jealousy, . . . and other human ego-driven concerns. God has none of them.
Right, and we haven't spent entire threads arguing about your Absolute Morality as proof of God.
Nice to know you know God so well to. When did he explain these things, during a lunch meeting?
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