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If God is such a great and all-powerful being, why the hell does he have to use such ambiguous methods to reach his creation? It's as if he doesn't want us to believe. But, whatever, I guess he works in mysterious ways huh?
Are you expecting God to hand you a radio or television receiver perhaps?
He has thoroughly endowed His children on earth in every age with the means needed to communicate with Him both ways. But you deny your dual nature and all things spiritual. Your attitude from my point of view is sort of like choosing to keep your eyes firmly closed all the time then proclaiming that nothing exists in the universe except those things you can hear with your ears!
But, that's your choice and you have every right to limit and handicap yourself as much as you want to.
Doesn't take an astrophysicist to recognize a few simple facts...
1. Science and religion cannot coexist, they are polar opposites to one another.
But it apparently takes an unbigoted reader to see that "religion" and "Creator" are not the same thing. The obsession of those who have been in some personal way negatively impacted by religion is sad to witness.
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2. A jesuit preist isn't exactly an unbiased scientist. While, in my personal experience, Jesuits tend to be the most open minded of the lot, they are still going to always and automatically argue for the existance of their deity.
This denigration of the personal integrity of a scientist based on his association with a religion is pure bigotry!
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3. His claims are no better, and no more substantiated, than any YECer argument. "It's there so goddunit" is not science.
Your dismissive assumptions are no better and no more substantiated than any other bigot.
P.S. The bible doesn't count. You should already know why (hint: you can't use the bible to prove the bible. It just doesn't work in the real world).
Actually the Bible does count, it counts as much as any other ancient books that have been found, translated, and made available in our time. You try to throw it out because it does not preach godlessness, which you choose to believe in. (And don't come back with great purple antelopes or whatever; thinking people of all beliefs or none at all do not go along with such things either. But millions and millions of thinking people do go along with the Bible, like it or not.)
P.S. You don't have to "prove" the bible: it's real, it's tangible, it's traceable back to ancient documents written in other languages by quite a few different authors, it's "the world's most readily available and most translated book."
Whether or not you believe everything that's written in the books of the Bible or any other book is another matter entirely. You really can't reasonably expect others to go along with your attitude that "the bible doesn't count!"
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When it comes to publishing, nothing beats the Bible. It's the world's most readily available and most translated book — with portions of it now in more than 2,400 languages. A recent survey done by Gallup for the American Bible Society showed that 93 percent of all American households have at least one Bible on hand. And the poll showed that the most popular version was the King James, possessed by 54 percent of American Bible owners. A distant second was the New International Version at only 15 percent.
Justamere10, you claim that creationism is true, and not a myth, but can you give proof that your creation account is true. What constitutes as proof is that which can and has been proven through the scientific method. The problem in saying that your creation account(or any creation account for that matter) is true is that one, it is untestable and two, there is no evidence which empirically substantiates its truth. Thus, it follows that creationism is a myth.
Not being a scholar I don't know all that is contained in the package called "creationism." So I can't in all honesty say that I believe "creationism" to be true or false.
But I do believe that God the Father created physical bodies for Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness, placed within those bodies their spirits, and put them in an idyllic environment known today as the "Garden of Eden."
I do know that many prophets and writers ancient and modern have written about the Garden of Eden. You probably would not accept that as "evidence" because what you demand is that the secular methods and tools of modern science be used to "prove" to you that the Garden of Eden existed.
As I am becoming fond of writing in this thread: wrong methods, wrong tools...
Last edited by justamere10; 10-01-2009 at 02:55 PM..
Actually the Bible does count, it counts as much as any other ancient books that have been found, translated, and made available in our time. You try to throw it out because it does not preach godlessness, which you choose to believe in. (And don't come back with great purple antelopes or whatever; thinking people of all beliefs or none at all do not go along with such things either. But millions and millions of thinking people do go along with the Bible, like it or not.)
P.S. You don't have to "prove" the bible: it's real, it's tangible, it's traceable back to ancient documents written in other languages by quite a few different authors, it's "the world's most readily available and most translated book."
Whether or not you believe everything that's written in the books of the Bible or any other book is another matter entirely. You really can't reasonably expect others to go along with your attitude that "the bible doesn't count!"
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When it comes to publishing, nothing beats the Bible. It's the world's most readily available and most translated book — with portions of it now in more than 2,400 languages. A recent survey done by Gallup for the American Bible Society showed that 93 percent of all American households have at least one Bible on hand. And the poll showed that the most popular version was the King James, possessed by 54 percent of American Bible owners. A distant second was the New International Version at only 15 percent.
"As I am becoming fond of writing in this thread: wrong methods, wrong tools..." Justamere
I apologize that us atheists and agnostics are not very good at playing "lets pretend" You have no tools except what you personally believe, and that's no tool at all.
Not being a scholar, I don't know all that is contained in the package called "creationism." So I can't in all honesty say that I believe "creationism" to be true or false.
But I do believe that God the Father created physical bodies for Adam and Eve, placed within those bodies their spirits, and placed them in an idyllic environment known today as the "Garden of Eden."
I do know that many prophets and writers ancient and modern have written about the Garden of Eden. You probably would not accept that as "evidence" because what you demand is that the secular methods and tools of modern science be used to "prove" to you that the Garden of Eden existed.
As I am becoming fond of writing in this thread: wrong methods, wrong tools...
Reason and modern science have proven to be the most reliable sources in finding the truth. The problem with your belief in the Garden of Eden and the Adam and Eve story is that you can't scientifically prove it is true. It would therefore be illogical to accept the truth of your claims.
The wrong tools and wrong methods are faith and personal belief.
The right tools and right methods are modern science, reason and scepticism.
Since the only "evidence" for spiritual matters is subjective opinion, how can anyone be more skilled than anyone else in the area?
Random House dictionary definition of "evidence" as it applies to a court of law:
"...data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include thetestimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects."
I understand that it can be very difficult for anyone who rejects their dual nature to accept that when someone has a genuine spiritual experience, TO THEM it is not mere "opinion", it's just as real and just as valid as a genuine physical experience, and in many cases is in fact much more impressive than the mere physical senses can provide.
But you choose to limit yourself to secular methods and tools and the observations of those who use them to tell you what's true and perhaps even what's not true. That's perfectly valid for empirical studies. But when it comes to things of the spirit: wrong method, wrong tools...
Are you expecting God to hand you a radio or television receiver perhaps?
He has thoroughly endowed His children on earth in every age with the means needed to communicate with Him both ways. But you deny your dual nature and all things spiritual. Your attitude from my point of view is sort of like choosing to keep your eyes firmly closed all the time then proclaiming that nothing exists in the universe except those things you can hear with your ears!
But, that's your choice and you have every right to limit and handicap yourself as much as you want to.
I would say prove it, but, then you'd say "you can't measure spiritual things with scientific tools," or something along those lines so why bother.
Also, since your God is all-powerful, why couldn't he just make himself knowable with physical means for our more dense brethren?
Ya know, every once in a while he could try to call, stop in for dinner, or play with me on the weekends ya know?
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Originally Posted by justamere10
Actually the Bible does count, it counts as much as any other ancient books that have been found, translated, and made available in our time. You try to throw it out because it does not preach godlessness, which you choose to believe in.
I don't take the bible as a credible source because you cannot use a book to prove a concept found exclusively within that book! If you try to use Frankenstein (the book) to prove that Frankenstein (the character) actually existed, of course the book would say that he does in fact exist because the character is found with the book. You have to have outside sources that would say the same thing (i.e. a birth certificate, eye witness accounts, etc.).
The same is true of your bible (or any book for that matter). You can't use it to prove a concept (or person) found within it, because 100 % of the time you'll find it in there. Logically and honestly you can't use it in a real debate.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
(And don't come back with great purple antelopes or whatever; thinking people of all beliefs or none at all do not go along with such things either. But millions and millions of thinking people do go along with the Bible, like it or not.)
I don't give a rat's ass what millions of people believe or not. Once again, just because millions of people believe something does not make it any more true or credible.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
P.S. You don't have to "prove" the bible: it's real, it's tangible, it's traceable back to ancient documents written in other languages by quite a few different authors, it's "the world's most readily available and most translated book."
The bible itself is tangible but the concepts (and main characters) are not. Also, just because it is most readily available and most translated book does not make it any more true or credible.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
Whether or not you believe everything that's written in the books of the Bible or any other book is another matter entirely. You really can't reasonably expect others to go along with your attitude that "the bible doesn't count!"
Actually, if you were to enter a real debate on your God and you try to bring in the bible as evidence, you'd be shot down and discredited so quick that it's not even funny. It is a reasonable stance to say that you cannot use a book to prove the concepts found within that book. It is the unreasonable stance to suggest otherwise.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
When it comes to publishing, nothing beats the Bible. It's the world's most readily available and most translated book — with portions of it now in more than 2,400 languages. A recent survey done by Gallup for the American Bible Society showed that 93 percent of all American households have at least one Bible on hand. And the poll showed that the most popular version was the King James, possessed by 54 percent of American Bible owners. A distant second was the New International Version at only 15 percent.
So? What does being a best seller have to do with anything? This is another logical fallacy. Just because a book has sold lots and lots, doesn't make it any more credible nor truthful or entertaining. A best seller book only means one thing: it sold. It doesn't tell us anything else.
You're going to have to do better than that. It's just fallacy after fallacy for you.
Doesn't take an astrophysicist to recognize a few simple facts...
1. Science and religion cannot coexist, they are polar opposites to one another.
2. A jesuit preist isn't exactly an unbiased scientist. While, in my personal experience, Jesuits tend to be the most open minded of the lot, they are still going to always and automatically argue for the existance of their deity.
3. His claims are no better, and no more substantiated, than any YECer argument. "It's there so goddunit" is not science.
Thanks for commenting on the article.
1. I don't agree with your opinion. I for one value both science and religion, I think each is a valid and useful way to discover truths. Many scientists believe in God.
2. A Jesuit priest who is a physicist with a doctorate degree should command just as much respect as any other who doesn't happen to be a Jesuit. The major difference is that another scientist just as well qualified but who does not believe in God is not likely to be interested enough to explore proof of God, whereas the Jesuit is.
And there's that matter of "peer review". My guess is that if the Jesuit scientist is wise and has a choice, those peers would not likely even be Catholics.
Last edited by justamere10; 10-01-2009 at 03:57 PM..
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